Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Since this thread has gone off rails. It is "imposed" past tense and the train left the station a long time ago regarding Hawaii. Bummer for you I guess.
Quickly shut it down b4 someone else reads views that are not popular or politically correct.
But this thread, as it keeps beating a dead horse,
people are quick to talk about how Kamehameha united the islands and all the chatter about how he killed soo many people. yet they don't want to "open" their eyes to the killing that the US is doing in Iraq, Afghanistan..... so on and so forth.... I say if the people have a case against Kamehameha bring it. same goes for Iraq and the others....
can you move to Iraq and share your beliefs..... more so the beliefs of the US in wanting to make the world a better place....
Hawaiian has a point there.. if you think about it was the US welcome to do what they did in Iraq? Hawaii...... for that matter the native Americans? they never once asked for the intrusions.
An Honorable man said... Hawaiian National yet American by force"
why would I or Hawaiian want to go somewhere else to.... ?? share our beliefs?
its soo interesting how the western world is quick to impose... not share they beliefs and there way of life across the world. here in the undisputed video of western ways/views of Hawaii and he is our governor to say the least.
Since this thread has gone off rails. It is "imposed" past tense and the train left the station a long time ago regarding Hawaii. Bummer for you I guess.
according to TOS I find this Highly offensive..... I am deeply hurt.
You are misleading people with your thoughts and posts....
I am sure you are right. On the other hand, there are other native people on this forum that disagree with you. Jonah K for example has disagreed with some of what you have said. My wife reads these forums, she is just as much a native person as you are and she disagrees with what you have said. I have also met many native Hawaiian people, not sure if they come to this forum or not but I do know that they disagree with what you have said.
What really matters is how many people actually agree with you. If you get enough people to agree with you, then you can eventually get the change you seek. That's why I support your right to say what you say and try to change people's minds. I currently disagree with you and yet I do wish you much luck and hope you are not just wasting energy that could be used better somewhere else.
the more we can educate people as to what really happened, the better. DHHL as well as OHA, IMO... are not trying their best to move the HKG forward.. they are puppets of the state and are fed $$$ by the state..... you know the saying "don't bite the hand that feeds you.." so I feel as if their priorities are not that of the Hawaiian people.
"61 years later, Hawaiian was a non self-governing territory under Article 73 of the United Nations charter. Under the charter, such territories were supposed to be given three options for governance — remain a territory, become part of its trustee nation (a state in the U.S.) or become independent. Hawaii's vote was missing the third option in 1959, denying the people the chance to self-govern again.
The UN stated that Hawaii's statehood is in violation of its charter. The United States Justice Department has confirmed that Hawaii's 1898 annexation wasn't under the authority of Congress and is therefore illegal. The United States government even signed into law Public Law 103-150 acknowledging not only its illegal overthrow of the Hawaiian government but that Hawaiians never surrendered their sovereignty. "
It was brought to my attention by a mutual friend that my"haole go home!" statement in #257 could be taken as racism, no i want to clarify that it had nothing to do with the color of skin as it does with attitude. I had hope with the statement b4 it and after it would clarify that but i guess i was wrong to assume that. So if i offended anyone it wasnt my intention. Aloha
Last edited by hawaiian by heart; 09-29-2013 at 08:14 PM..
The more we can educate people as to what really happened, the better.
I agree with you 100% on this. I think that a good debate, free of name calling and personal attacks is always healthy.
Oh, and thanks for the trains of Hawaii video!
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawaiian by heart
It was brought to my attention by a mutual friend that my"haole go home!" statement in #257 could be taken as racism, no i want to clarify that it had nothing to do with the color of skin as it does with attitude. I had hope with the statement b4 it and after it would clarify that but i guess i was wrong to assume that. So if i offended anything it wasnt my intention. Aloha
I applaud you for this! We all misspeak from time to time and make mistakes. It takes a very big person to admit their mistakes, apologize and move on.
@OpenD Your quote:"What's been missing from this discourse is any sense of proportion. Hawai'i is not Iraq, or Afghanistan, or Syria, or anything even remotely like it, so stop going there. As I recall there wasn't even any bloodshed in the 1893 coup, although somebody died in prison afterwards that was maybe related." - Hey wait its a coup now? To say that now OpenD means that the Unitted States Did something wrong? Thats a big difference between what you guys said before that everything was legal and up n up.
I'm not "you guys," and the fact that you, Hawaiian by Heart, have stopped interacting with me, OpenD, as the unique individual I am, is part of the problem I have with the mess this thread has devolved into. In your comments you've effectively turned me into one of the enemy, instead of relating to me as the caring, intelligent, sensitive person you know me to be, both on and off the forum.
I've never said that what was done to the Hawaiian monarchy was right. I don't think anyone here has. What I have said, consistently, is that the wrongs that were done so very long ago cannot be set right by turning the calendar back for the 1,400,000 people who live here now. It's 2013, and there's no way back to 1893, or 1877, or even 1959. Clearly it's impossible to do any of those things.
Quote:
Hmmm id say its prob worse for the Hawai'ians then Iraq. I mean they startted off with a nation of what? 200,000-800,000 Fullblooded Hawai'ians to what is it now? 10,000? almost genaside.
Yes, but genicide is deliberate, whereas the loss of life in Hawai'i was entirely unintentional, the result of disease from other parts of the world being introduced for which kanakas had no natural immunity. Half of the natives still alive by the 1840s died of measles. Measles! Not poison gas or explosive bombs or flying bullets, but measles! To compare that tragedy with the disgusting violence and wanton killing in today's war torn areas is vastly overblown and totally inauthentic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawaiian by heart
Quickly shut it down b4 someone else reads views that are not popular or politically correct.
No, shut it down because it has become repetitive and partisan and contentious and has blindly descended into personal insults and lost any relevance whatsoever to finding a real, practical solution for the Hawaiian people today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kawena
people are quick to talk about how Kamehameha united the islands and all the chatter about how he killed soo many people. yet they don't want to "open" their eyes to the killing that the US is doing in Iraq, Afghanistan..... so on and so forth.... I say if the people have a case against Kamehameha bring it. same goes for Iraq and the others.... Beating a horse... Hmmmm
Yes, beating a dead horse that is not going to move another step in any direction. As my web browser sometimes says, "It's dead, Jim!"
And civil, relevant discourse has been completely run off the rails in the process. This is not the Politics and Other Controversies forum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kawena
according to TOS I find this Highly offensive..... I am deeply hurt.
You are misleading people with your thoughts and posts....[/url]
I know you think you are being funny with your mockery, but for me you just keep poking farther into a deep personal tragedy from my real life, and if you knew the truth of it and why this causes me so much pain I think you would feel ashamed for not taking me seriously when I first raised the issue. You've lost track of the fact that I'm a real flesh and blood person, with real emotions, not a dartboard to score points on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kawena
the more we can educate people as to what really happened, the better. DHHL as well as OHA, IMO... are not trying their best to move the HKG forward.. they are puppets of the state and are fed $$$ by the state..... you know the saying "don't bite the hand that feeds you.." so I feel as if their priorities are not that of the Hawaiian people.
But they are ALL Hawaiian people, and if you don't agree with their direction or their decisions there is a clear political process in place within which you can make your voice heard and work to effect change.
As far as making reparations, large pieces of Hawaiian property have been set aside for the benefit of people of Kanaka Maoli descent, and there are programs in place to assist them with housing, even to buy housing there at reduced rates if they want, and much more. Kamehameha schools are still, so far, only open to people of Kanaka Maoli blood. 96% of the Hawaiian population today does not qualify for these, or any other Hawaiian race based programs. I originally thought that the Akaka Bill, or something like it, to give native Hawiians some measure of self-government within the Homelands was appropriate and reasonable, but the nationalist activists trashed it, because they want the whole pie, and then it got labeled as racist by the other end of the political spectrum, and that combination killed that possibility for good. It's dead, Jim!
Can the situation be improved? Yes, most definitely, and I certainly encourage you to work to achieve those ends. But to restore the Hawaiian monarchy, or even to turn the current Hawaiian government out because of the events of 120 years ago, that simply is never going to happen.
What's the wildest, most improbable, most completely unlikely outcome I can actually see appearing anywhere out there in the realm of possibility? That a do-over of the 1959 plebiscite might be ordered by the UN and reluctantly agreed to by the US, with the "missing" option from last time on the ballot - to separate the state from US control and become an independent nation again - but to be fair to everyone, it would have every voter in the state eligible to participate, not just people of native heritage.
But I think the outcome of that faraway, someday election, if it were to be ordered and accepted, is entirely predictable. Don't you? Seriously? Any other outcome but continuing as a US State would plunge the islands into chaos and economic ruin, and who would vote for that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by McFrostyJ
I agree with you 100% on this. I think that a good debate, free of name calling and personal attacks is always healthy.
But we have not had that, which is the source of my complaints about it.
Quote:
I applaud you for this! We all misspeak from time to time and make mistakes. It takes a very big person to admit their mistakes, apologize and move on.
But neither Kawena nor Hawaiian by Heart have apologized for implying that I use drugs and that it has affected my mental ability. Worse, they've made fun of me for how I feel about being attacked in this way.
Thoughts on David Sai's filings at the ICC and ICJ:
David Sai, self appointed to the "Acting Government of the Kingdom of Hawaii", is a convicted class B felon, whose Perfect Title Company claimed back in the 90s that all real estate transactions since 1893 were invalid in the face of claims prior to the abdication of Queen L because of the illegitimacy of the US occupation yadda yadda. A number of people following his advice on this point subsequently stopped paying their "invalid" mortgage payments, then lost their homes and property in foreclosure. In 1997 the state had enough of this nonsense and raided his firm and shut it down. Sai wound up with a sentence of five years probation for theft. In street parlance he's a grifter, a con man, a honeyfuggler who makes his living by sweet talking people into believing a big fantasy he's spun about restoring the monarchy and thus getting native peoples a lot of free goodies, with rainbows and sparkles and stuff.
Although David Keanu Sai is a "convicted felon" under U.S. law, that didn't prevent him from obtaining a Ph.D. in Political Science from UH Mānoa in 2008 and obtaining a position as a lecturer at Windward Community College. Sai's doctoral dissertation, entitled "The American Occupation of the Hawaiian Kingdom: Beginning the Transition from Occupied to Restored State" is notable for what it doesn't include -- a detailed analysis of the "election" of 1874. In his dissertation, Sai failed to mention that the first official act of Kalākaua after being "elected" monarch was to request the assistance of the United States military to quell the rioting by the supporters of Queen Emma, his opponent in the "election." At the start of his reign, Kalākaua wasn't particularly popular among Hawaiians and without American intervention and protection, he might've been assassinated by some of his subjects who preferred Queen Emma. In a nutshell, the Kalākaua Dynasty was started with American intervention and nineteen years later, American intervention ended it with the overthrow of Liliʻuokalani. In any event, Sai's publications are somewhat interesting, but instead of advancing the cause of Hawaiian sovereignty, Sai appears to be setting it back with some of his shenanigans.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
