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I think the problem is that having been raised on diets rich in meat and dairy (milk, cream, cheese, ice cream, etc) it's tough to let go and make a slight change, much less drop them altogether. It's like an addiction of sorts. That's why there's so much rationalizing and denying. Just my opinion.
That or taking things totally out of context. Perhaps some meats are healthy and good for you but can you limit your portions to 3 to 3.5 oz per serving? How good is cow milk for you after it's been pasteurized? Maybe that almond milk don't look so bad afterall. Brie cheese, goat cheese, feta, mozzarella, etc. may be ok for some folks in proper proportion?
My point is, besides stayin on topic to the thread, why lump meat and all that entails to all of dairy? Now, if you're vegan, it's a no-brainer. They can have neither. But that's not the topic at hand here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnonChick
There's no *medical* reason why any *HEALTHY* person should feel the need to eliminate meat from their menu. However, if you are overeating meat (such as a sirloin every night and half a roast chicken every day for lunch, with bacon every morning) - you might benefit from reducing.
The 108 year old man became frail *before* he started eating the allegedly worse diet. It didn't say if the other people in his small town that are living to very old ages have the same diet.
Which is safer, Tobacco or food with built-in cancer? Is everyone doomed to be in danger except those who eat organic?
Science is telling us that both tobacco and meat/dairy consumption are triggers that can cause cancer.
In my family, three smokers died of lung cancer many years after they stopped smoking. I think it was something like 10-15 years after they had stopped smoking. One with emphysema died of pneumonia a few years after she stopped.
I don't think anyone can yet predict when cancer will strike as a result of diet.
In either case, not everyone that's exposed to those things will get cancer. But many presumably will.
The risks are there and it is something that we can disregard (take our chances) or try and avoid. I think it's also about quality of life in later years, based on the senior folks I see at our gym.
That or taking things totally out of context. Perhaps some meats are healthy and good for you but can you limit your portions to 3 to 3.5 oz per serving? How good is cow milk for you after it's been pasteurized? Maybe that almond milk don't look so bad afterall. Brie cheese, goat cheese, feta, mozzarella, etc. may be ok for some folks in proper proportion?
My point is, besides stayin on topic to the thread, why lump meat and all that entails to all of dairy? Now, if you're vegan, it's a no-brainer. They can have neither. But that's not the topic at hand here.
This.
They include dairy along with milk because they are both sources of animal protein and their studies indicate that eating animal protein has consequences because they can trigger harmful disease. As far as amounts, again I go back to the smoking analogy. Knowing what we know about smoking, would you tell someone to limit their smoking to just a couple of cigarettes a day? Is that a safer thing to do?
They include dairy along with milk because they are both sources of animal protein and their studies indicate that eating animal protein has consequences because they can trigger harmful disease. As far as amounts, again I go back to the smoking analogy. Knowing what we know about smoking, would you tell someone to limit their smoking to just a couple of cigarettes a day? Is that a safer thing to do?
Milk is dairy.
Would I tell someone to limit their smoking to 2-3 cigarettes per day if they were a smoker? Absolutely. As with anything, there really are no toxic substances. There are only toxic levels of them.
Example: We can generally agree that water intake is essential for the human body and that pure water is one of the least toxic substances known to man. Yet, if the average sized person drinks a gallon of water over the course of an hour, it will likely put them in the hospital or even kill them (see: acute hyponatremia).
The human body is an exceptional machine and it is very efficient at eliminating toxins from itself. However, there are limits to what it can handle and the tolerable amount varies widely by substance. Cigarette smokers run into problems when the body's ability to eliminate certain substances from it is exceeded by the smoker's intake. So, yes, less intake is most definitely better.
Then, we get to the situation of nutrition density. Cigarettes have virtually no nutrient benefit. Meat and dairy both do. Actually, the nutrient density of meat and dairy is quite high. It is so high, in fact, that several arctic cultures exist on diets based almost exclusively on animal flesh. Comparing cigarette smoking to the consumption of meat and dairy is a complete non sequitur. Almost (and by almost, I mean 99.9%) every single healthy diet around the globe includes meat, dairy, or both. What actually makes a diet less healthful is the consumption of processed foods and refined carbohydrates. That's why many people who adhere to "veg" diets are actually quite unhealthy. They are both nutrient deficient and heavily reliant on processed foods. A "veg" diet must be carefully managed. A Meditteranean style diet (largely considered the most healthful) really doesn't as it includes a wide variety of whole foods including meats, fish, poultry, cheeses, yogurt, and the occasional glass of milk.
1) The scare tactic in the headline which was undoubtedly put there to attract attention, despite having little or no scientific basis.
A much better headline would be "Limiting Protein Intake May Increase Longevity." No fear mongering and it informs you what the study is about.
2) There are years worth of research and studies about the effects of high protein/low simple carb diets that refute this study, High protein, low simple carb diets have proven consistently to assist with weight loss, reduce or eliminate diseases like diabetes and lower heart disease-causing arterial inflammation. It has mid to low production value, but the documentary Fat Head is definitely worth a watch for a quick overview of these issues.
3) Actually reading the study, it's a conglomeration of results from other studies and like a game of telephone may not reflect accurately on the original research in the end. Certainly this is a valid method of authoring a study, repurposing other people's results, but it must be done with extreme caution, which didn't seem to happen here.
4) The study consistently references high protein consumption, but doesn't clearly establish what was considered high protein consumption or account for consistency of the diets. It is important to know the details of the macronutrients consumed. How many grams of protein were consumed? How many grams of carbs were consumed? How many grams of fat were consumed? Were study participants exclusively eating these undefined "high protein" or "high carb" diets for the full length of the study? How much variation was there in their diets? This sort of attention to detail was severely lacking in the study. What if members of the high protein group were consistently eating 1000 grams of protein per day and 100 grams of carbs? That's certainly a high protein diet, but unless you're Michael Phelps, eating that kind of diet is likely to cause you to become obese and subject to a variety of health problems.
5) There seemed to be no accounting for the quality of any of the diets consumed during the original studies this one was based upon. What about factors such as organic vs non-organic sourced foods? What about exercise habits and vitamin/mineral supplementing?
6) Other factors did not seem to be excluded or controlled for. How was the population sampled? Were equivalent numbers of thin, healthy, overweight and obese people chosen for each group? Smokers vs non-smokers in each group? Alcohol consumption (and for that matter, what types of alcohol they consumed)?
With a relatively small sample size, second hand information and few (if any) controls implemented alongside the fear mongering, reporter-baiting language, this study seems extremely suspect. Scientific sensationalism is incredibly dangerous.
It's not hard at all, especially if you're someone who -over-does it, rather than does it modestly and wants to cut down.
If you usually have 8 slices of bacon with your 3-egg swiss-cheese and mushroom omelet, it's very easy to cut down to only 6 slices of bacon, 2 eggs, and half the amount of cheese.
Compare to someone who only has bacon once a month, and then, only 2 slices, with 1 egg omelet, and only a pinch of cheese. There's not much there to cut down on. The attempt will be more difficult.
There's no *medical* reason why any *HEALTHY* person should feel the need to eliminate meat from their menu. However, if you are overeating meat (such as a sirloin every night and half a roast chicken every day for lunch, with bacon every morning) - you might benefit from reducing.
when I see some pushing less dairy such as cheese, I think about the French and a few other Europian countries that love their bread, cheese and wine. Tell them to cut back on dairy, see how far you get, right??? How many here are old enough to remember when we were told to drink a quart of milk a day? Then we were told not to eat eggs, We were told to make sure our kids got lots of sunshine, then we were told to make sure they stayed out of the sun or lathered themselves with sun screen (probably a good idea) We can go on and on. Like you are saying moderation is the secret to life period!!!!!
We're all going to die and there's nothing you can do about. Carry on, live your life, stop seeking out these "X common thing causes cancer" type of studies.
eh, no different than any other something is not good for your health story and personally I am sick of them and I just don't care.
I eat what I want when I want and if it is something that is higher calorie or deep fried I don't eat as much of it, all food consumed is accounted for daily but I'm pretty sure the Auto Immune Liver Disease I have will kill me well before medium well dead cow and a bowl of ice cream.
i think its a concerted effort and strategy,,,to connect the word meat/steak/beef/red meat to death, kill, cigarettes, its all framing connectors,,
with what happened to cigarretes, the vegans want the same thing to happen to meat/red meat
and any sensationalism,,,,the media is right behind them,,,
did you know hitler was a vegetarian ?? even tho true, im sure this statement offends the vegans... its never a two way street
I find Americans' responses to "scientific studies" to be fascinating. Some people deny the validity of almost all scientific studies. As in, scientists are elitist liars. For example multiple studies related to climate change or even the age of the Grand Canyon cause great controversy as many people insist there's no such thing as climate change and the Grand Canyon is only 2,000 years old. Other people can't embrace studies like this one warning against meat and dairy fast enough. One study supports a vegan diet, therefore we all should embrace it. Because ... SCIENCE!
We are all different. Our bodies react to things we ingest in different ways. For example, many studies now conclude that more American children suffer from allergies today than ever before because our environment is TOO clean; that children in places like Russia and China, with terrible pollution, suffer from fewer allergies. That doesn't mean we should bring back pollution because it's good for people. My father smoked 2-3 packs of cigarettes a day for more than 50 years. Yet he never got cancer. Why, who knows. But it's certainly no proof that other people won't get cancer if they smoke far less.
Living itself is dangerous. We're all going to die. That's no excuse to do terrible things to one's body, but each of us has to decide for ourselves what's terrible for us. So even if "science" can prove there are links between some diseases and some substances, that's not a valid reason to ban them if we embrace a free society. It's a valid reason to keep them away from children (e.g. cigarettes) just as it's a valid reason to regulate some things because their use or non-use can hurt other people besides one individual (e.g. mandated use of seat belts).
If the OP wants to remove meat and dairy from her diet and forego the use of tobacco products, that's fine. And if she thinks she has scientific evidence to back up her choices, excellent for her. But these things need to be a personal choice for each individual. And I say that as a firm believer in facts that are derived through the rational application of scientific principles.
Hitler was a vegetarian and so was Gandhi. "Veg" people tend to forget that dietary choices are not precursors of intelligence nor the accompanying intellect any more than they are to complete madness. There is no moral highground because even vegans are responsible for the deaths of animals when their food is produced. They simply choose the collateral route over direct consumption. That is their choice to make. However, the notion that no creature is displaced, maimed, or killed to support a vegan diet is a complete fallacy. That's why, in these arguments, it's best to stick with the health claims as, after all, that is the bottom line. And, there is absolutely zero proof that animal protein is harmful to the average person. There is also mounting evidence that learning how to cook our food and eating meat is what allowed our brains to evolve above and beyond those of our parent species. To me, the science is pretty clear: to not consume animal protein is, at best, partial denial of what got us here and the world's most healthful diets all include a moderate amount of animal protein. Therefore, I'll continue doing what has allowed me to develop into a disease free and very healthy adult. For everyone else, it is their own choice to make for themselves.
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