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I tried four different statins in my early 40s because of elevated triglycerides and LDL. I experienced muscle pain with every drug I tried within 2 months of starting them. I listen to my body. No doctor will convince me to try them again. Besides, if you don’t die of heart disease or in an accident, the next likely scenario is cancer. I would prefer a fatal stroke or heart attack to terminal cancer any day. This whole notion of preventive medicine strikes me as unnatural and simply a way for pharmaceutical companies to get even richer.
You aren't paying attention, as usual. What causes LDL to be elevated? It is only a primary cause in FH. It is MUCH more common for the primary cause to be lifestyle, which leads to insulin resistance, etc.
You need things to be very simple. You don't have any idea how to analyze causality in complex systems.
Pray tell, how do YOU analyze causality in complex systems and then apply it specifically to this issue. And please leave out the words...."as usual"..."no one knows"...and "I already said that".
You aren't paying attention, as usual. What causes LDL to be elevated? It is only a primary cause in FH. It is MUCH more common for the primary cause to be lifestyle, which leads to insulin resistance, etc.
You need things to be very simple. You don't have any idea how to analyze causality in complex systems.
Lol. Wow. Do you even know Bluedevilz education? Why is it that the "alt med" pushers end up soooooo rude to people? And then run to the other thread "why are people so mean to me"?
Zero self awareness.
Seriously. This is why people glaze over when the "I read an article on Google/saw a commercial/read a blog/listened to a radio show" start in on people. You aren't helping "victims" when you use this nonsense. It's annoying not educational.
I tried four different statins in my early 40s because of elevated triglycerides and LDL. I experienced muscle pain with every drug I tried within 2 months of starting them. I listen to my body. No doctor will convince me to try them again. Besides, if you don’t die of heart disease or in an accident, the next likely scenario is cancer. I would prefer a fatal stroke or heart attack to terminal cancer any day. This whole notion of preventive medicine strikes me as unnatural and simply a way for pharmaceutical companies to get even richer.
Yet you are excited about having an upcoming colonoscopy because of the general anesthesia.
Doesnt your body "tell you" what's in your colon or you're just not "listening" enough? A colonoscopy is preventive. Is that "unnatural"?
Anesthesiologists & pharma are getting richer with your colonoscopy love.
Lol. Wow. Do you even know Bluedevilz education? Why is it that the "alt med" pushers end up soooooo rude to people? And then run to the other thread "why are people so mean to me"?
Zero self awareness.
Seriously. This is why people glaze over when the "I read an article on Google/saw a commercial/read a blog/listened to a radio show" start in on people. You aren't helping "victims" when you use this nonsense. It's annoying not educational.
So we are going to believe whatever Bluedevilz says because of his education? Why talk about anything here, we can just ask Bluedevilz to give us all the answers.
Pray tell, how do YOU analyze causality in complex systems and then apply it specifically to this issue. And please leave out the words...."as usual"..."no one knows"...and "I already said that".
I have explained an awful lot of this already, but of course you don't read what I write.
No, complex biological systems are not well understood, and it is arrogance to think the human mind can completely understand them. But parts have been studied and observed, OBVIOUSLY.
When you analyze complex systems it is important to remember that causality is seldom simple or direct. There can be multiple causes, and there can be chains of causes. Some causes are necessary, but not primary.
The cholesterol hypothesis of heart disease was based on observations of the RELATIVELY rare cases of FH. So the idea was extended to all cases of heart disease, as the simple idea that high cholesterol is the primary and sufficient cause of all heart disease.
Not true, as many researchers suspect, and many have found.
So lowering cholesterol probably has no advantage, for most people. The slight benefit seen with statin drugs is probably the anti-inflammatory effect. Since chronic inflammation seems to be a causal factor in artery damage.
So we are going to believe whatever Bluedevilz says because of his education? Why talk about anything here, we can just ask Bluedevilz to give us all the answers.
And this, ladies & gentlemen, is exactly why all these threads go nowhere and have zero credibility.
Pray tell, how do YOU analyze causality in complex systems and then apply it specifically to this issue. And please leave out the words...."as usual"..."no one knows"...and "I already said that".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin
I have explained an awful lot of this already, but of course you don't read what I write.
No, complex biological systems are not well understood, and it is arrogance to think the human mind can completely understand them. But parts have been studied and observed, OBVIOUSLY.
When you analyze complex systems it is important to remember that causality is seldom simple or direct. There can be multiple causes, and there can be chains of causes. Some causes are necessary, but not primary.
The cholesterol hypothesis of heart disease was based on observations of the RELATIVELY rare cases of FH. So the idea was extended to all cases of heart disease, as the simple idea that high cholesterol is the primary and sufficient cause of all heart disease.
Not true, as many researchers suspect, and many have found.
So lowering cholesterol probably has no advantage, for most people. The slight benefit seen with statin drugs is probably the anti-inflammatory effect. Since chronic inflammation seems to be a causal factor in artery damage.
FAIL. On all counts.
You analyzed and explained nothing only repeated that it is seldom simple or direct - yeah...you got that from your STATS101 course - what about the rest of your doctoral level courses that I thought you took? Yeah...it's been a few years.
No one has ever died from hypercholesterolemia ....
Not even worthy of a response.....
You can't respond because I'm correct. Too much cholesterol itself does not kill directly. Name me one case where it does.
Diabetes is similar. The only time it can kill you is when your blood sugar goes too high or too low. Most of the time you die from complications of diabetes.
"But the most important point in this discussion, is that without cholesterol getting past the arterial wall and being eaten by a macrophage, heart disease will not happen."
The quote was just a small part of the article. The article goes on to say what I've been saying all along. It's LDL particle size that matters and it goes on to give an explanation about it.
Quote:
When it comes to heart disease risk, the LDL lipoproteins are the most important.
However... the picture is much more complicated than simply "LDL = bad."
There are subtypes of LDL, mainly depending on the size.
Their size is often classified as either "small, dense LDL" or "Large LDL"
Studies show that people who have mostly small particles, called Pattern B, have up to a three times greater risk than people with mostly large particles, called Pattern A (7).
However, the most important marker of all is the number of LDL particles (called LDL Particle Number, or LDL-p).
Their size, as well as the amount of cholesterol (LDL-c) they carry, becomes meaningless when you account for LDL particle number.
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