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They would have eventually been beaten down by guerrilla warfare. It's tough to march troops in a pretty formation when every quarter mile some farmer/peasant/patriot/rebel is taking pot shots at you......
Yeap i believe they said that after the fall of Ft. Washington and Ft. Lee that Washington changed tactics as he knew that he could match up to the Brits in traditional European battle formations.
I think Saratoga is a good example of how the locals and farmers etc. could fight the Brits and win or at least disappear into the woods after a skirmish and remain mostly in tact to fight another day.
O.k. i see .... miss communication between the commanders there.
Also i assume that Burgoyne totally miscalculated the terrain from the end of Lake Champlain to Saratoga
Burgoyne was not ignorant of the terrain, but he thought that slashing his way through the forests was going to be the greatest difficulty he faced.
Burgoyne's plan called for him to move his 5000 regulars South toward Albany, accompanied by 2000 Indian allies. A mixed force of 1500 regulars, Canadian militia, local loyalists and Indians under Barry St. Ledger was supposed to move out of the Mohawk Valley and link up with Burgoyne, and Howe was supposedly bringing 20,000 or more regulars up from New Jersey. The idea of course was to overwhelm the defenders by creating more threats than they had forces with which to counter. Thus, while Burgoyne was aware that he would be struggling through a trackless and difficult terrain, he felt that would be doing so with very little in the way of opposition.
Of course St. Ledger was defeated by Arnold, his Indian allies took a powder and St. Ledger retreated back to Quebec. Then Burgoyne's own Indian allies decided to hell with it and they deserted as well. Finally, Howe went South rather than North.
Burgoyne was left to conduct the three prong campaign with a single prong. He had also assumed that since the area through which he was marching was only thinly populated, there would not be any gathering of militias to annoy him. He was terribly wrong about that. Militia units retreated before Burgoyne's advance, felling trees, ambushing scouts, raiding supplies and generally slowing Burgoyne to glacial progress.
Burgoyne was not ignorant of the terrain, but he thought that slashing his way through the forests was going to be the greatest difficulty he faced.
Burgoyne's plan called for him to move his 5000 regulars South toward Albany, accompanied by 2000 Indian allies. A mixed force of 1500 regulars, Canadian militia, local loyalists and Indians under Barry St. Ledger was supposed to move out of the Mohawk Valley and link up with Burgoyne, and Howe was supposedly bringing 20,000 or more regulars up from New Jersey. The idea of course was to overwhelm the defenders by creating more threats than they had forces with which to counter. Thus, while Burgoyne was aware that he would be struggling through a trackless and difficult terrain, he felt that would be doing so with very little in the way of opposition.
Of course St. Ledger was defeated by Arnold, his Indian allies took a powder and St. Ledger retreated back to Quebec. Then Burgoyne's own Indian allies decided to hell with it and they deserted as well. Finally, Howe went South rather than North.
Burgoyne was left to conduct the three prong campaign with a single prong. He had also assumed that since the area through which he was marching was only thinly populated, there would not be any gathering of militias to annoy him. He was terribly wrong about that. Militia units retreated before Burgoyne's advance, felling trees, ambushing scouts, raiding supplies and generally slowing Burgoyne to glacial progress.
Thanks Grandstander as i now have a good understanding about the northern campaign with Burgoyne.
Also i was thinking that while Britain and France weren't at war at the beginning of the American Revolution War however i'm sure that they had to always keep a large contingent of the Navy and Army close to Great Britain and not allowed to go and fight the Americans as were they not worried that France could invade without warning at anytime??
Thanks Grandstander as i now have a good understanding about the northern campaign with Burgoyne.
Also i was thinking that while Britain and France weren't at war at the beginning of the American Revolution War however i'm sure that they had to always keep a large contingent of the Navy and Army close to Great Britain and not allowed to go and fight the Americans as were they not worried that France could invade without warning at anytime??
Great Britain was mostly depending upon the Royal Navy to defend the home shores, they never had a very large standing army and most of it was either in North America or scattered about the assorted holdings of the empire. The 32,000 man force which Howe brought for the assault on New York, was the largest overseas army Britain had ever assembled up to that point. Because their own army was not that large, a quarter of that force was composed of rent-a-soldiers from German principalities.
Did i read correctly that shortly after Burgoyne had surrendered that Washington ''paroled'' him to go back to Great Britain ro attend business?? Also didn't Howe parole General Sullivan shortly after his capture to speak to congress? Was this practice common during the war for each side to be doing this to captured Generals ??
Did the General's create this just to protect themselves incase of capture since they controlled the ''game'' where as the captured average soldier usually rotted in a Prison Ship/POW Camp etc. ?
Did i read correctly that shortly after Burgoyne had surrendered that Washington ''paroled'' him to go back to Great Britain ro attend business?? Also didn't Howe parole General Sullivan shortly after his capture to speak to congress? Was this practice common during the war for each side to be doing this to captured Generals ??
Did the General's create this just to protect themselves incase of capture since they controlled the ''game'' where as the captured average soldier usually rotted in a Prison Ship/POW Camp etc. ?
Sullivan wasn't paroled, he was exchanged.
Burgoyne surrendered under an agreement that he and his men return to England and keep out of North America until the war had been concluded. Congress then repudiated the surrender terms and Burgoyne's army was placed in captivity. Burgoyne himself was allowed to return to England because it was obvious that upon the heels of the Saratoga disaster, he wasn't going to be given any further command responsibilities in the war.
Burgoyne was a clever fellow and he set about, with some justice, to shift the blame from himself to Germaine and Howe. This eventually caught on and in 1782 he was restored to rank. A year later, when a government less friendly to him came to power, he anticipated being stripped of rank once more and forestalled this by resigning.
One interesting fact with Cornwallis is that he opposed the Stamp Act in Parliament and was generally seen as being sympathetic to the colonial cause during the lead up to the outbreak of hostilities. This didn't stop him from volunteering for duty when the war broke out, but certainly his political thoughts and soft stance towards the colonists were not exactly a secret.
Who knows what the outcome would have been with Cornwallis in command. Certainly he was an aggressive commander and would have taken more chances than Howe and pursued Washnington with more vigor. It always seemed like the British only ever half-heartedly pursued the war from all facets. What is true is that while Cornwallis' career pre-revolution wasn't that awe inspiring his career post-revolution proves what a capable and intelligent man he was.
I do believe that had Washington and the Continental Army been captured and destroyed that it would have been the end of the revolution in the majority of the colonies. While New England was the birthplace of the revolution and the area of strongest support, the mid-Atlantic and Southern colonies had far higher percentages of Loyalists. Any major shock like the destruction of that the continental army would have been enough to push them to pursue peace and a return to the status quo, especially if the defeat was followed by a treaty offering forgiveness for transgressions from the King.
New England may have soldiered on, but would have been ultimately defeated. While the colonials could have carried out a guerilla campaign for a long time, the British could have easily held the major population centers and cared less what the farmers were doing.
While the colonials could have carried out a guerilla campaign for a long time, the British could have easily held the major population centers and cared less what the farmers were doing.
I agree with your post save for this last part. America did not have any great population centers, the overwhelming majority of people lived in rural settings. At times during the war, the Brits occupied Boston, New York, Philadelphia and Charleston, the four most consequential cities in the colonies. Little good it did them and they were eventually compelled to evacuate three of the four since holding on to to them was not winning the war for them.
And they certainly would have been forced to care what the majority of the population, which was not under their control, was doing.
I agree with your post save for this last part. America did not have any great population centers, the overwhelming majority of people lived in rural settings. At times during the war, the Brits occupied Boston, New York, Philadelphia and Charleston, the four most consequential cities in the colonies. Little good it did them and they were eventually compelled to evacuate three of the four since holding on to to them was not winning the war for them.
And they certainly would have been forced to care what the majority of the population, which was not under their control, was doing.
I agree with you, but the statement was based on a pseudo history where Washington and the Continental Army had been destroyed and every colony outside New England had gone back to the crown. In that case, with no standing field army and a reliance on guerilla tactics for the colonials, simply occupying major cities and trade centers like Boston across New England would have been enough of a controlling factor so that the British could simply wait for things to settle down.
It might have taken awhile, but I think it could have worked. Especially if amnesty and Parliamentary representation were being offered to end the conflict. With every major city and trade center occupied and the original grievances redressed and all other colonies already giving up the fight, I don't think the average New Englander would see the point in carrying on the fight.
Ultimately the British occupation of major cities failed in the actual war, because the Continental Army was allowed to maneuver at will and could easily be supplied from the countryside. They had hoped that they could have forced people to come to their senses by taking the key cities, but they failed to realize that the war rested on Washington. As long as he was actively fighting the hope for victory still existed. Take away Washington and the army and the revolution folds quickly.
Ultimately the British occupation of major cities failed in the actual war, because the Continental Army was allowed to maneuver at will and could easily be supplied from the countryside.
This reminds me of Charleston 1780 in which Clinton sacked it and captured most of the Southern army commanded under General Lincoln for the British in the spring as King George must have doing cartwheels over his forces victory there and yet by the end of the following year 1781 the Brits would not only lose the South but the entire war with Cornwallis surrender at Yorktown with the exception of some skirmishes in the Western theater.
Last edited by Six Foot Three; 07-07-2010 at 07:07 AM..
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