Bismarck vs Yamato WW2 Battleships (war, biggest, state, Japanese)
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O.k. from my understanding is that the German battleship Bismarck and the Japanese battleship Yamato were the two biggest and most powerful battleships of WW2 and so who do you think was the better battleship? I'm being hypothetical here however if they fought each other ''one on one'' who'd you think would had prevailed??
The two Yamato-class battleships were several knots slower, a good bit larger, had thicker armor, and bigger guns than the two Bismarck-class battleships. The German ships were more maneuverable.
The Yamato-class battleships carried nine 18-inch guns in three triple turrets. The could throw 6,000-lb. projectiles just over 26 miles at the rate of 1 to 1.5 rounds per gun per minute. There is very little data regarding their demonstrated accuracy.
The Bismarck-class battleships carried eight 15-inch guns in four dual turrets. They could throw 1700-lb. projectiles just over 22 miles at the rate of 2 to 2.5 rounds per gun per minute. They demonstrated the capability of firing with extreme precision. Their shells had a higher velocity, resulting in a much lower arc and a shorter travel time. The direction- and range-finders were radar directed.
So here's what I think. Had Bismarck and Yamato ever battled, the outcome would depend on the nature of the engagement. In a toe-to-toe slugfest, the Yamato's larger, longer-range shells and thicker armor gave it the clear advantage. In a running or maneuver-and-fire battle, the Bismarck's advantage in speed & maneuverability, and her precise gunnery, may have given her a slight advantage if she could bring Yamato within range of her guns.
At sea, the decision of whether or not to engage belonged to Bismarck.
Hard to say since we have an example of the Bismarck's lethal accuracy in ship to ship engagements, but no counter example from the Yamato. I do not know how fast and accurate was the state of Japanese gunnery, I do know that the only time the Yamato ever fired its guns in anger, it was aiming at my father who was aboard the Kitkun Bay, one of the six escort carriers of Taffy Three in the Battle Off Samar. It missed..I wouldn't be here writing this if it hadn't.
The Japanese were unmatched in night fighting and night gunnery, so perhaps if this had been a post twilight contest, the advantages would have been been the Yamato.
An interesting question. As stated in a previous post, in a duel involving extensive manuverability, along with perhaps limited visibilty, I would give the Bismarck a good chance, given it's speed advantage, and the ship's excellent fire control system.
If it was an old fashioned, up-close slugging match, I can't see how the Bismarck would have survived. I would think that a few salvos from those 18" guns on the Yamato would be devastating.
Well, the snarky answer is neither. Battleships were already outdated by the beginning of WW2. Carriers ruled the oceans and it has remained that way since then. For direct evidence, both of these ships were crippled and/or destroyed by carrier based planes.
On the battleship front, I think both of the designs fell short of the U.S. Iowa class that was the pre-eminent WW2 battleship design incorporating firepower (not just weight and distance of projectile, but accuracy as well), speed, armor and anti-aricraft capability these ships didn't possess.
As it was these two ships were of very different design with different roles to play. The Yamato class was designed as a Japanese counter to the numerically superior American battleships. They knew they could never equal the U.S. in ship production, so they invested into large ships that were designed to engage multiple American battleships simultaneously. The idea was to use the superior weight of fire and range to engage the American ships.
The Bismarck was designed as a heavier "fast" battleship that emphasized speed and puch, but was optimized for battles in the North Sea and North Atlantic. Since visibility was incredibly hampered in that environment the Bismarck was setup more for close range gun battles. Even the armor was designed to be resist shells from close range, not arcing shells that would come from the top, a major difference versus U.S. and British ships at the time.
Only the Bismarck has a real combat record, where it engaged HMS Hood. Hood, however, was virtually a relic at the time and was quickly destroyed. The Yamato and Musashi never really engaged in any direct combat.
I think if Yamato fought Bismarck, the Yamato would win. As someone else said, the battle would be on Bismarck's terms, but Yamato's superior range, firepower and armor give it the clear advantage. The wildcard here is whether or not Bismarck could score a couple critical hits early on and give itself a leg up. The Bismarck did have better accuracy and fire control, but the Yamato's armor was designed to withstand 16" shells which was more than Bismarck had. One lucky hit, as with most naval engagements, and the tide could be turned.
However, it needs to be stated again that both of these designs were obsolete by the beginning of WW2. Carrier based aircraft were what won battles and both of these ships amounted to little more than floating targets.
Only the Bismarck has a real combat record, where it engaged HMS Hood. Hood, however, was virtually a relic at the time and was quickly destroyed. The Yamato and Musashi never really engaged in any direct combat.
Don't forget that HMS Hood was accompanied by HMS Prince of Wales, a state-of-the-art British battleship that carried ten 14-inch guns. Bismarck and her consort, the heavy cruiser Prinz Eugen, took HMS Prince of Wales out of the battle very quickly. Don't forget the British light and heavy cruisers that dogged Bismarck until she received the ministrations of the Fairey Swordfish torpedo planes from HMS Ark Royal, which eventually caused her to come under the guns of the British Fleet.
Don't forget that, even though damaged and outgunned, Bismarck still managed to keep two British battleships (HMS Rodney with nine 16-inch guns and HMS King George V with ten 14-inch guns) dancing to her tune of incredibly accurate salvoes from her 15-inch guns.
And don't forget that it was not gunnery, but torpedoes from HMS Dorsetshire and Kapitan Lindeman's order to scuttle, that eventually sealed her fate.
Last edited by Nighteyes; 08-10-2010 at 01:28 PM..
Bismarck would have been well within Yamato's range before she could have engaged,no doubt Bismarck's rangefinding was superior and would have inflicted damage,but one land,or even near miss by Yamato could have damaged the tempermental engineering and manuevering plant of Bismarck,after that,a fat lady would sing,probably a Wagnerian tune,not Madame Butterfly.
On the battleship front, I think both of the designs fell short of the U.S. Iowa class that was the pre-eminent WW2 battleship design incorporating firepower (not just weight and distance of projectile, but accuracy as well), speed, armor and anti-aricraft capability these ships didn't possess.
I'm not so sure of that. The Iowa-class battleships (BBs 61 through 64) were designed to counter the threat of fast battleships like the Bismarck-class. However, they were only marginally faster than the Bismarck-class, their guns had about the same range and throw-weight, and their armor wasn't quite as thick. In the present scenario (BB vs. BB) the anti-aircraft capability - which the Iowa-class would have easily won - simply doesn't count.
In fact, if you look closely, the four Iowa-class battlewagons are little more than longer versions of the four South Dakota-class battleships (South Dakota, Indiana, Massachusetts, Alabama). This resulted in slight increases in speed and AAA capability, but nothing more.
Don't forget that HMS Hood was accompanied by HMS Prince of Wales, a state-of-the-art British battleship that carried ten 14-inch guns. Bismarck and her consort, the heavy cruiser Prinz Eugen, took HMS Prince of Wales out of the battle very quickly. Don't forget the British light and heavy cruisers that dogged Bismarck until she received the ministrations of the Fairey Swordfish torpedo planes from HMS Ark Royal, which eventually caused her to come under the guns of the British Fleet.
Don't forget that, even though damaged and outgunned, Bismarck still managed to keep two British battleships (HMS Rodney with nine 16-inch guns and HMS King George V with ten 14-inch guns) dancing to her tune of incredibly accurate salvoes from her 15-inch guns.
And don't forget that it was not gunnery, but torpedoes from HMS Dorsetshire and Kapitan Lindeman's order to scuttle, that eventually sealed her fate.
Don't forget that Prince of Wales went to sea with Hood in chase of Bismarck without being fully outfitted or completing sea trials. Her complement included over 100 civilian laborers still working on the ship. Yes, she was turned back by the gunfire from Bismarck and Prinz Eugen, but after the Hood went down she was easily outmatched. Prince of Wales also dealt the first blows to Bismarck that contaminated the fuel supply and flooded a boiler room causing Bismarck to reduce speed to 20 knots.
Don't forget that the pursuing ships were never intended to engage Bismarck, simply follow her. The Swordfish attack damaged the rudder and caused additional damage that caused the speed to be reduced further to 16 knots.
Don't forget that when King George V and Rodney engaged, they did so in concert and from range. Within 44 minutes the Bismarck had been completely disabled and reduced to 7 knots with virtually no superstructure remaining. Both British battleships retired when fuel was running low and their ammunition had been expended, leaving it up to the cruisers and destroyers to deliver the final torpedo strikes to sink the ship, which was most likely scuttled anyway.
Don't forget that it was very common for battleships to be incapable of sinking other battleships at this time, but it was very easy for them to be disabled.
I think Bismarck put up a glorious fight and the British war records say as much. However, it was an impossible fight to win and the British approached the battle cautiously as to avoid further losses. Your telling sounds as though Bismarck bravely blasted her way through the Home Fleet and this wasn't the case. In concert with Prinz Eugen she took out the Hood and drove off Prince of Wales that was not even fully outfitted. From that moment on Bismarck was running for it's life from the Royal Navy who eventually hunted her down and finished her off without further losses.
I didn't mean to glorify Bismarck, just to point out that she did better than your first post suggested. Also see my post about Bismarck v. Iowa-class.
I also agree that battleships were made obsolete by the dawning of air power. Their death-knell was sounded first by the Brits at Taranto in November of 1940, and then by the Japanese at Pearl Harbor in December of 1941.
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POST-SCRIPT: This is beginning to sound like a game of Clue: "The Colonel in the Drawing Room with the Candlestick."
Last edited by Nighteyes; 08-10-2010 at 02:21 PM..
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