Hitler-Stalin 1943 (a little-known WWII story) (war, Roman, Great Britain, USSR)

[kowalskil]

Stalin’s 1939 pact with Nazis was designed to allow capitalists to weaken each other, and be ready to confront them later. Stalingrad, and other victories, provided the second chance to implement this strategy, I was told this summer, by a friend.

I finally found a book about this. The title is "Germany's Key Strategic Decisions 1940-1945." The author is Heinz Magenheimer, an Austrian military historian. All this is in Chapter IV, in a section named : "The Question of 'Closing Down the Eastern Front' and a Separate German-Soviet Peace," (pages 192 to 201). It is clear to me, after reading this section, that both Hitler and Stalin were aware of this option. It was not implemented because Hitler believed that he will win militarily, even after Stalingrad.

Mussolini was not the only one to suggest this idea to Hitler. Here is a quote: "Mussolini's attempts, which became tangible in written and verbal form after 6 November 1942 and which were presented to Hitler on 18 December 1942 by Foreign Minister Ciano in the form of appropriate recommendations, were based on the idea of reaching a settlement with the Soviet Union--a second 'peace treaty of Brest-Litovsk.' Mussolini and Ciano argued that within the foreseeable future all available forces would be needed to repel the anticipated invasion of Sicily and Italy by the Western powers."

Sweden was a neutral country and several meetings took place in Stockholm "via various German and Soviet contacts . . . to discover how serious Germny was to conclude a separate agreement, on the basis, for example, of a return to the mutual frontiers existing before June 1941." On page 307 I see a quote from reference 49: "By a note of 12 November Molotov informed the Western Allies of the Soviet feelers via representatives in Stockholm. It appears that Stalin took this step in order to strengthen his political position vis-a-vis Great Britain and the USA." Why was Hitler so stupid?

P.S.
I tend to agree with Magnenheimer that the Soviet Union would lost in WWII if Germans started recruiting their war prisoners in 1941, as suggested by some German strategists. Millions of Red Army soldiers surrounded to Whermacht in the first three months of the war. But Hitler and Himler were against this; they started doing this at the end of the war only. That was too late. Another factor that contributed to German defeat was their barbaric treatment of civil population in the occupied USSR territories.

[MrMarbles]

My thoughts:

1. I doubt a peace between Germany and USSR was possible. The Soviet Union could never be safe as long as Germany was not destroyed. Any kind of peace would have been no more than a timeout. Stalin understood this. Besides, the tide was turning against Germany anyway. I know that the Soviets considered offering a deal in 1941 soon after the war began, when the situation was much bleaker, but in the end decided against it.

2. Arming Soviet POWs wouldn't have done much. Germany didn't really lack cannon fodder. They needed dependable well trained, well led troops with materiel. There were hundreds of thousands (if not over a million) Italian, Hungarian and Romanian troops fighting in the eastern front but they were of second rate quality at best and, as the Battle of Stalingrad showed, proved to be a liability more than anything.

[Dd714]

Hmm. It sounds like your reference for the possible Soviet-German cease fire was based on Soviet records, and it hints it may have been a propoganda ploy by Soviets to play against the other allied powers, namely the UK and the US. That makes sense. But in reality it would have never happened. No way. If history shows us anything, Hitler's hatred for anything Russian (from a racial standpoint) and communist (from a political standpoint) was almost fanatical. In turn, Russia knew it was a war to the death and by the first few days of Barbarossa it was too late for either side to have any type of cease fire or even a conditional surrendor. It was just too brutal of a war.

ALso, Hitler used plenty of foreign conscripts, including soldiers from the Russian Baltic states. They made no strategic difference. They couldn't even depend on their major ally - Italy, for reliable soldiers (or, really, leaders of these soldiers).

[MrMarbles]

The Germans recruited hundreds of thousands of "hiwis" - mainly POWs and other collaborationists. While they typically didn't see combat roles, they assisted with secondary and logistical duties. In some situations, like the Battle of Stalingrad, the hiwis fought harder than the Germans since for them surrender wasn't an option (for obvious reasons).