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Tomorrow is Independence Day and we're right now in the midst of a wonderful 3 day weekend set aside to honor that independence and our freedoms.
Throughout this holiday, we'll hear repeated references to those Veteran's who fought to preserve our freedoms, just as we do on Memorial Day and Veteran's Day. There's nothing at all wrong with that, but I wonder if we ever stop to consider just how many of our wars really were in defense of our freedom?
To me, there were only 3: The War of 1812, the Civil War and WWII, indirectly. Every other war or place where we committed troops to combat were about something else.
In the 19th century, I can't think of a single, solitary war (other than the 2 mentioned) which wasn't about conquest and expansion of our territory at the expense of someone else. From Mexico, through the various Indian wars to Cuba and the Philippines, it wasn't our freedoms we were defending: It was our territory we were expanding.
In the 20th century, we fought wars for someone elses' freedom. From WWI through Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War, the Balkans and even right up until today, we fought not for ourselves, but for other oppressed or threatened people. In the Philippines, we actually fought AGAINST freedom when we took military action against the forces of Aquinaldo.
Other committments weren't so clear-cut, such as our various involvements in Nicarauga, the Dominican Republic, Panama, Lebanon, Somalia and China. In those cases, the focus was either defense of corporate interests or sticking our nose in where it may not have belonged. Ideology seems to have been the driving force more than anything else.
So, the questions are these: ARE our involvements in such wars and miltary actions something we should honor on Independence Day? Do we REALLY need to not only defend others freedoms, but actually impose them as we're trying to do in Iraq and Afghanistan? How do these military actions stack up against the Declaration of Independence?
You do not classify the Revolutionary War as a struggle for freedom?
I also wonder on what basis you distinguish the causes of the War of 1812 from the causes of America's entry into WW I. Both came about as a consequence of a beligerent nation's policies regarding other nations' freedom to use the seas in an unrestricted manner. What is it which made you conclude that in 1812 it was about American freedom while in 1917 it was not?
You do not classify the Revolutionary War as a struggle for freedom?
I purposely excluded the Revolution because it was fought to gain our freedoms, not secure those we already had.
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I also wonder on what basis you distinguish the causes of the War of 1812 from the causes of America's entry into WW I. Both came about as a consequence of a beligerent nation's policies regarding other nations' freedom to use the seas in an unrestricted manner. What is it which made you conclude that in 1812 it was about American freedom while in 1917 it was not?
While the issue which preciptated the War of 1812 was impressment of American sailors into the British Navy, it quickly became much more than that when the British invaded our country and set themselves the goal of bringing those former colonies back under the King.
Of course, it must also be noted that WE used the war with Britain as an excuse to once again invade Canada, so it's not so cut and dried. But, Madison had great difficulty holding the union together because the New England states were not at all averse to rejoining the Empire and even went so far as to continue victuling and supplying the British during the war. To me, it was, indeed, a war to preserve that which had been so hard won a few decades before.
WWI had nothing whatsoever to do with our freedoms. We sent troops to defend France and that's about all which can be said of it.
WWI had nothing whatsoever to do with our freedoms. We sent troops to defend France and that's about all which can be said of it.
Defending France? That wasn't the goal, if that had been the goal we would have sent troops in 1914 rather than waiting three years to get involved.
America's entry into the war was a direct reaction to the late 1916 announcement from Germany that it was going to resume unrestricted submarine warfare, along with the revelation (via the Zimmerman telegram) that Germany was attempting to forge an alliance with Mexico which promised that Mexico could regain Texas, New Mexico and Arizona if victorious.
Woodrow Wilson had been reelected in 1916 on the motto//"He kept us out of war", so it isn't like there was some popular majority sentiment for going to France and saving their cheese.
So, your response is that the wars were different because of:
A) Developments after war had already been declared in 1812, which of course do not serve to explain why we went to war in the first place
and
B) Your incorrect knowledge of how we came to be involved in WW I.
Defending France? That wasn't the goal, if that had been the goal we would have sent troops in 1914 rather than waiting three years to get involved.
America's entry into the war was a direct reaction to the late 1916 announcement from Germany that it was going to resume unrestricted submarine warfare, along with the revelation (via the Zimmerman telegram) that Germany was attempting to forge an alliance with Mexico which promised that Mexico could regain Texas, New Mexico and Arizona if victorious.
Woodrow Wilson had been reelected in 1916 on the motto//"He kept us out of war", so it isn't like there was some popular majority sentiment for going to France and saving their cheese.
So, your response is that the wars were different because of:
A) Developments after war had already been declared in 1812, which of course do not serve to explain why we went to war in the first place
and
B) Your incorrect knowledge of how we came to be involved in WW I.
I'd say that your thesis remains unproved.
I don't have either the time nor the inclination to argue with you about WWI, so let's just go ahead and include it in my list of wars actually fought for our own freedom. Now we have 4, instead of 3, out of the dozens we've fought.
I don't have either the time nor the inclination to argue with you about WWI, so let's just go ahead and include it in my list of wars actually fought for our own freedom. Now we have 4, instead of 3, out of the dozens we've fought.
Bascailly one can argue endlessly about which wars defend our freedom. its really ideoloagy we defend just as our support of britian was defnse before we entered the war has mosyt historian believe. Wars are just that not always to defend land itself but the war of idealofgy is always been on going.
You can not say that the Revolutionary War was fought to secure our freedoms. It was a war fought started my the upper middle class who felt that they shouldn't pay for a previous war that benifited them. The upper classes were already free and the lower classes were largely uneffected by the policies of the crown. An estimated 15% of the population of the colonies were upset at the crown and its tax policies that paid for the French and Indian War. SO in essence there was no real freedom at all.
The Great War was a great mistake, and if Wilson had actually believed in the garbage that he stated he would have entered the US into the war in 1914 and saved lots of lives. Wilson was a bigot, a liar, a fraud and a sham, and in the end he got what he deserved.
We don't honor war on Independence Day, we honor a rebellious uprising and of breaking the law. It is in my opinion, the biggest farce holiday that we have, that is actually celebrated on the wrong day, and really isn't the birth of anything. The true birth of our nation would be on Sept. 17,1787 when the constitution was adopted.
There were a number of causes (at least 5) to which the War of 1812 can be legitimately attributed. It is facile to pick one, and use that as a generalized defense for a position that one wished in the first place to take, reagrding that war in particular or wars in general.
Defense of liberty is not very close to the top, on the list of objectives that the war might have been intended to achieve, and it is difficult to argue that our Liberty was in any sense in jeopardy.
Last edited by jtur88; 07-03-2011 at 11:57 PM..
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