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Something that hasn't been mentioned is the Third Rome. The first Rome was the Roman Empire, the Second Rome was the Byzantine Empire which was finally extinguished in 1492, so what was the third Rome? Where did the Orthodox Church flee to after Sulieman the Great took the Hagia Sofia and converted it into a great Mosque? Why to a remote Principality far to the North which gathered up the reminants of peoples who had been ravaged by the Mongols and Turks. The orthodox church had come to the Russians centuries before when they took the stylized Greek-Byzantine alphabet of Saint Cyril. So the Patriarch was at home. The Third Rome is Muscovy or modern Russia and why do you think the Autocrat of all the Russias was called a Czar or Tsar? The Third Rome eventually reached across Eurasia and all the way to the Americas, an empire larger than the first two Romes combined.
Something that hasn't been mentioned is the Third Rome. The first Rome was the Roman Empire, the Second Rome was the Byzantine Empire which was finally extinguished in 1492, so what was the third Rome? Where did the Orthodox Church flee to after Sulieman the Great took the Hagia Sofia and converted it into a great Mosque? Why to a remote Principality far to the North which gathered up the reminants of peoples who had been ravaged by the Mongols and Turks. The orthodox church had come to the Russians centuries before when they took the stylized Greek-Byzantine alphabet of Saint Cyril. So the Patriarch was at home. The Third Rome is Muscovy or modern Russia and why do you think the Autocrat of all the Russias was called a Czar or Tsar? The Third Rome eventually reached across Eurasia and all the way to the Americas, an empire larger than the first two Romes combined.
I touched on the in post #17. On top of all that Ivan III was actually married to the last Byzantine Emperor's daughter, actually giving him and his descendants a valid claim to the imperial throne. There are also other more "amusing" things like the fact Moscow is situated on seven hills, just like Rome.
I guess the question then is, is Russia still the third Rome or did that die with the communist revolution? If it is no longer Russia, does Rome still exist or is it just allegory now as in calling the United States the new Rome?
The Roman Republic/Empire wasn't even Christian for the vast majority of its history. Only in its waning years, starting with Constantine, did Christianity become legitimized and even the official religion of Rome - which of course the Byzantines inherited. The late RE abandoned most of its traditions and institutions - which, it could be said, contributed to its downfall.
Of course the BE wouldn't even exist without its predecessor. But the same could be said about, say, the United States and the British empire. In fact, the Americans and the Brits have a lot more in common than citizens of the Roman and Byzantine empires.
I would agree that the most logical successor to the Roman Empire was the Byzantine Empire. Although the empire diverged from Roman culture over time, the citizens of the empire preserved Roman culture to some extent and actually considered themselves Romans. I would point out that the prior to the deterioration of the relationship with the West, the Greek (pagan) identity was suppressed in the Byzantine Empire in favor of a Roman (Christian) identity. Over time, a resurgence of Greek identity was developed. As NJGoat stated, religion in Rome evolved throughout the course of the empire, and Christianity supplanted pagan beliefs.
In regards to the Holy Roman Empire, the first thing I remember learning about it is that is was neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire. It would be more accurately described as a loose confederation of German states. This also serves to illustrate the powerful desire of middle age peoples to identify as true Romans.
I touched on the in post #17. On top of all that Ivan III was actually married to the last Byzantine Emperor's daughter, actually giving him and his descendants a valid claim to the imperial throne. There are also other more "amusing" things like the fact Moscow is situated on seven hills, just like Rome.
I guess the question then is, is Russia still the third Rome or did that die with the communist revolution? If it is no longer Russia, does Rome still exist or is it just allegory now as in calling the United States the new Rome?
I think Russia of the pre-Communist era is still here. Since the collapse of the USSR the Russian Federation has seen a revival of the Orthodox Church, they rebuilt the Church of Christ the Savior in Moscow, given the remains of the last Czar a proper State Funeral and a Christian Burial. In fact the Patriarch bas put the last Czar on the road to Canonization. Russia's military uses the double-eagle in conjunction with the red star.They also use the pan-slavic red-white and blue flag. I think Putin views himself as a latter day Mikhail Romanov.
All this puts me to mind of a scene from "The Sopranos" where Tony and his gang are putting the squeeze on some Hasidic Jewish hotel operators. The son in law of the owner starts talking about Masada and how all the Jews killed themselves rather than submit to Rome. Of the mighty Romans he asks..."Where are they now?"
I think Russia of the pre-Communist era is still here. Since the collapse of the USSR the Russian Federation has seen a revival of the Orthodox Church, they rebuilt the Church of Christ the Savior in Moscow, given the remains of the last Czar a proper State Funeral and a Christian Burial. In fact the Patriarch bas put the last Czar on the road to Canonization. Russia's military uses the double-eagle in conjunction with the red star.They also use the pan-slavic red-white and blue flag. I think Putin views himself as a latter day Mikhail Romanov.
Culture and tradition are often more powerful than revolution. These things were still remembered. I remember when the Soviets were fifty years old and someone said they were 'old'. My comment was they were babies faced with the tradition and when enough people got fed up enough with things they'd end. They did on the day of my son's birth. Even under the societs the practices of the gentry remained, the estates and the power while the prolitarian/pesants labored. If the church had not had influence, it would not have been so entergetically villified. Things change, but never as much as you think.
One of the things which doomed the democratic movement in old Russia was that there never was any tradition behind it. People will sometimes use the conventions of a new system while tacking it on as wallpaper over the old, traditional one.
I would agree that the most logical successor to the Roman Empire was the Byzantine Empire. Although the empire diverged from Roman culture over time, the citizens of the empire preserved Roman culture to some extent and actually considered themselves Romans. I would point out that the prior to the deterioration of the relationship with the West, the Greek (pagan) identity was suppressed in the Byzantine Empire in favor of a Roman (Christian) identity. Over time, a resurgence of Greek identity was developed. As NJGoat stated, religion in Rome evolved throughout the course of the empire, and Christianity supplanted pagan beliefs.
In regards to the Holy Roman Empire, the first thing I remember learning about it is that is was neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire. It would be more accurately described as a loose confederation of German states. This also serves to illustrate the powerful desire of middle age peoples to identify as true Romans.
Well if the most logical successor to the Roman Empire was the Byzantine Empire, then the logical successor of the Byzantine Empire was the Russian Empire of course.
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