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Old 02-19-2012, 05:09 AM
 
Location: Texas
14,076 posts, read 20,530,289 times
Reputation: 7807

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Quote:
Originally Posted by majoun View Post
You are aware that more languages were spoken in San Francisco in 1850 than in San Francisco today?
Asian's, mostly Chinese, made up 1/5th of California's population by 1860. If you throw in Pacific Islanders as well, it's about 1/10th today.
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Old 02-19-2012, 06:54 AM
 
Location: Nebraska
4,176 posts, read 10,688,423 times
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Where I live, almost all of the men wear cowboy hats, even the bankers and lawyers - mostly because they are also ranchers. Cowboy hats are convenient; they can hold water for you or your horse, keep the sun and wind off of your face, and even hold down a flannel scarf that goes over the ears to keep out snow and wind. You can walk into the local bar or restaurant on any day and see leather chaps and handguns at hips. These items are used out here, not for show - there are a lot of wild critters that invade ranches, from snakes to coyotes to the occasional mountain lion, and all must be dealt with. You can also buy anything aside from a new truck or a house on a handshake; they know who you are and will send the bill later - if at all. (One fellow forgot until we came in the next Saturday as promised to pay him.) People are judged, not on their clothes or possessions, but on how they treat others. If you see someone carrying a shotgun down the street, you might grab your gun and go with him; he might need help with a coyote pack, or someone might have had trouble with a flock of turkeys or herd of deer. (The flocks here get so large that they often attack people, and the herds of deer can decimate a garden over night.) Children start riding horses at 5 years old out here, and compete in local rodeos at the age of 12. Horses and horse work are an integral part of their lives here still. There are still cattle rustlers out here, but they use trucks instead of trying to herd animals across the fenced prairie. Law enforcement is few and far between, and a lot of folks maintain order simply by being quietly and firmly adamant about rights.

On TV, you'll see thousands of people whining about an ice or snowstorm or flood that cut off their electricity or trapped them without food; that doesn't happen out here. People stranded - often for 3-6 weeks - by blizzards or other natural disasters have plenty of canned food put back, a gennie hooked up, woodstoves ready and roaring with heat, and even kerosene lamps for light if necessary. No one whines or complains about their lot in life or what nature deals them; they suck it up and deal with it.

To me, the "Wild West" is more of an attitude of self-sufficiency, self-respect, pride, earned respect for others, and an attitude of independence and personal responsibility, yet helping each other without comment when necessary, loving the life, the land, and enjoying them. It still lives here. Tonight we are going to a "Sweetheart Dinner" put on by the local church - a full prime rib dinner and local cowboy poets and performers to entertain. It is an annual event.
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Old 02-19-2012, 09:54 AM
 
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
14,129 posts, read 31,253,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by majoun View Post
You are aware that more languages were spoken in San Francisco in 1850 than in San Francisco today?
Doubtful unless you have actual evidence to support it. There was probably a higher proportion of foreign speakers then but not as great a variety as now. Most foreign immigrants there back then were Irish, German, or Chinese. I'm pretty sure you could find at least one speaker of each of the world's languages there today.
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Old 02-19-2012, 10:55 AM
 
6,904 posts, read 7,605,159 times
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Various museums explore this concept:

What is "The West"?
What is the true history of "The West"
vs.
What is "The West of the Imagination?"
and
How was that image created?
and
How has the image evolved over time?

There are really no clear definitions or lines. Even the geographic region can't be exactly defined.

OP wrote "the American Old West", which is an idea. "The American West" is a place.

"The American Old West" is the West of the Imagination. It never has truely ended, and probably never will.
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Old 02-19-2012, 12:50 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,076 posts, read 20,530,289 times
Reputation: 7807
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCGranny View Post
Where I live, almost all of the men wear cowboy hats, even the bankers and lawyers - mostly because they are also ranchers. Cowboy hats are convenient; they can hold water for you or your horse, keep the sun and wind off of your face, and even hold down a flannel scarf that goes over the ears to keep out snow and wind. You can walk into the local bar or restaurant on any day and see leather chaps and handguns at hips. These items are used out here, not for show - there are a lot of wild critters that invade ranches, from snakes to coyotes to the occasional mountain lion, and all must be dealt with. You can also buy anything aside from a new truck or a house on a handshake; they know who you are and will send the bill later - if at all. (One fellow forgot until we came in the next Saturday as promised to pay him.) People are judged, not on their clothes or possessions, but on how they treat others. If you see someone carrying a shotgun down the street, you might grab your gun and go with him; he might need help with a coyote pack, or someone might have had trouble with a flock of turkeys or herd of deer. (The flocks here get so large that they often attack people, and the herds of deer can decimate a garden over night.) Children start riding horses at 5 years old out here, and compete in local rodeos at the age of 12. Horses and horse work are an integral part of their lives here still. There are still cattle rustlers out here, but they use trucks instead of trying to herd animals across the fenced prairie. Law enforcement is few and far between, and a lot of folks maintain order simply by being quietly and firmly adamant about rights.

On TV, you'll see thousands of people whining about an ice or snowstorm or flood that cut off their electricity or trapped them without food; that doesn't happen out here. People stranded - often for 3-6 weeks - by blizzards or other natural disasters have plenty of canned food put back, a gennie hooked up, woodstoves ready and roaring with heat, and even kerosene lamps for light if necessary. No one whines or complains about their lot in life or what nature deals them; they suck it up and deal with it.

To me, the "Wild West" is more of an attitude of self-sufficiency, self-respect, pride, earned respect for others, and an attitude of independence and personal responsibility, yet helping each other without comment when necessary, loving the life, the land, and enjoying them. It still lives here. Tonight we are going to a "Sweetheart Dinner" put on by the local church - a full prime rib dinner and local cowboy poets and performers to entertain. It is an annual event.

That self-sufficient, meet-any-challenge, help your neighbor attitude is still out there all over this country. It just isn't seen much any more. But, let something bad happen and it comes out. I've worked disasters from California to North Carolina, from North Dakota to the Gulf Coast and when the chips are down, you'll see far, far more people doing the right thing than you will see taking advantage of the situation in times of stress. That part of the Old West, cowboy era is alive and well.

But, I've seen the same thing in foreign countries, after disasters and during times of war, from one end of the earth to the other. It doesn't matter the race, the ethnicity, the continent, the tribe or country; people are just people everywhere and when it comes time to count, most people count. Sure, there are exceptions, there are cases where just the opposite is true, but they're really pretty rare.

I'm not so sure that the western, cowboy, Old West attitude is uniquely western, or even uniquely American. It seems to be more of a natural human trait.
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Old 02-19-2012, 12:55 PM
 
Location: Earth
17,440 posts, read 28,602,920 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVA1990 View Post
Doubtful unless you have actual evidence to support it. There was probably a higher proportion of foreign speakers then but not as great a variety as now. Most foreign immigrants there back then were Irish, German, or Chinese. I'm pretty sure you could find at least one speaker of each of the world's languages there today.
I read that in some books about California history I'd read through the years. I couldn't find any cite on the Internet but this site mentions that California was more international and diverse in the Gold Rush and Old West eras than it was in the mid 20th century: Should California Be its own Country? « Zócalo Public Square

Roger McGrath's studies on crime in Old West California (contrary to what people think, the incidence of every crime except murder was much, much lower than today - albeit the murder rate was higher) also mentioned that demographically California in 1880 resembled California in 1980 (diverse, albeit less diverse than today) more than the less diverse California of the mid twentieth century. BTW this is not an endorsement of McGrath's political views, which I find quite distateful, but merely his historical work concerning the Old West.
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Old 02-19-2012, 01:51 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,554 posts, read 86,977,099 times
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I would say the principal means of transportation signalled the end of the old west. When roads were built and automobiles arrived, everything changed. Butch Cassidy died less than 6 months before Clyde Barrow was born, and perhaps the character of outlaws, as always, was on the cutting edge. That was in 1908-09, and by the time Clyde could drive, the old west was no more.
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Old 02-19-2012, 02:23 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
48,564 posts, read 24,122,692 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
I would say the principal means of transportation signalled the end of the old west. When roads were built and automobiles arrived, everything changed. Butch Cassidy died less than 6 months before Clyde Barrow was born, and perhaps the character of outlaws, as always, was on the cutting edge. That was in 1908-09, and by the time Clyde could drive, the old west was no more.
I would date the technological transformation to the spread of railroads. They had a great civilizing impact. For example, the cowtowns of western Kansas thrived on the business brought to them by the trailhands coming up from Texas with the herds. These guys would get paid and instantly spend it all on booze, gambling and whores. Consequently, the cowtowns were incredibly tolerant places awash in bars, casinos and whorehouses. The lawmen like the Earps and Mastersons understood that their job was preventing major violence and mayhem, but ignoring a wide array of things which would get you arrested today.

When the tracks were laid from Texas to western Kansas, the need for the trail drives evaporated, the drovers quit coming to the cowtowns, and they had to remake themselves economicaly. Part of this transition was getting rid of the Earps and Mastersons and replacing them with a real police force which wasn't so easy going and lax.

Wherever the railroads went, commercial interests associated with them became supreme. Big business requires a peaceful atmosphere to thrive, so big business set about the task of discouraging the wild parts of the wild west. Pinkertons were hired, private police forces were formed, fences were erected, mail order brides were arranged.

Cars may have been the final nail in this process, but it began with railroads.
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Old 02-19-2012, 02:49 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,076 posts, read 20,530,289 times
Reputation: 7807
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
I would date the technological transformation to the spread of railroads. They had a great civilizing impact. For example, the cowtowns of western Kansas thrived on the business brought to them by the trailhands coming up from Texas with the herds. These guys would get paid and instantly spend it all on booze, gambling and whores. Consequently, the cowtowns were incredibly tolerant places awash in bars, casinos and whorehouses. The lawmen like the Earps and Mastersons understood that their job was preventing major violence and mayhem, but ignoring a wide array of things which would get you arrested today.

When the tracks were laid from Texas to western Kansas, the need for the trail drives evaporated, the drovers quit coming to the cowtowns, and they had to remake themselves economicaly. Part of this transition was getting rid of the Earps and Mastersons and replacing them with a real police force which wasn't so easy going and lax.

Wherever the railroads went, commercial interests associated with them became supreme. Big business requires a peaceful atmosphere to thrive, so big business set about the task of discouraging the wild parts of the wild west. Pinkertons were hired, private police forces were formed, fences were erected, mail order brides were arranged.

Cars may have been the final nail in this process, but it began with railroads.

I think you're right.

For instance, the era of the great cattle drives north to market essentially ended when the MK&T railroad entered Texas from Kansas, across the Indian Territories, in 1872 and established the town of Denison. After that, there was no need to drive cattle long distances to reach access to the Kansas City and Chicago packing houses.

That was quickly followed by expansion of the "Katy" to San Antonio and the connection with other in-state lines. Since most of the great cattle drives originated in South Texas, cattlemen no longer had to drive their herds all the way to Abilene or Dodge City. San Antonio was much closer.
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Old 02-19-2012, 07:14 PM
 
Location: University City, Philadelphia
22,632 posts, read 14,943,387 times
Reputation: 15935
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCGranny View Post

You can walk into the local bar or restaurant on any day and see leather chaps ...
We have a couple of bars here in Philly where on certain nights you can see guys wearing leather chaps. Big, burly guys with hairy chests.

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