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Meanwhile, Polish/Austrian policymakers used ukrainophile intelligencia to forward their own geopolitical plans. Unable to push Russian Empire off geopolitical chessboard they embarked on weakening Russia by breaking it up from within.
In 1892 (№ 168), the newspaper of the Lviv Polish gentry «Przeglad» stated on its pages: "If a Malorussian sentiment of the people there is a strong hatred for Russia, then there is hope that in future, with the further development of these feelings it will be possible to play Malorussian trump card against Russia ... We, Poles, should not fear such an evolution, on the contrary, we would be making a mistake if we would bar its way and voluntarily refuse an ally in the fight against Russia. "
Russian Empire became flooded with literature that was promoting separatism in Galitchina and Malorussia. Russian ministers responded with a knee-jerk reaction: all literature that originated in Polish provinces and was written in Galitcian and Malorussian dialects was banned! Bad move. It infuriated Malorussian “ukrainophiles” and they gave their support to the idea of creating a separate ethnos “ukrainians”, but with the difference: their “ukrainians” were not meant to be anti-Russian, just separate, that’s all…
Malorussian “ukrainophiles” (or “Ukrainian nationalists”) also started to collect and systematise Malorussian dialects in order to make a separate language – “ukrainian”.
And so it happened that by the start of the 20-th century the two schools of ukrainian nationalists, Western and Malorussian were born: the first campaigned for ethnic separation from Russian ethnos promoting anti-Russian sentiment, while the second wanted just broader cultural recognition. Both were working on a linguistic project – creation of a new uniform language out of multitude of regional dialects. We can only guess as to the result of it if not for an October revolution. Bolsheviks for their reasons took on board the idea of dismemberment of Russia.
In 1921-1922 a new republic -- Ukraine, was created out of Russian regions and all Russians born on those territories were written into official census as Ukrainians. New ethnicity needed a new language. Bolsheviks needed new “nation” to be as far removed from its Russian roots as possible and for that purpose Malorussian school of Ukrainian nationalism was pushed aside and Galitchian school (and personally Grushevsky) was given full support by Stalin. The slogan of the day was “Away from Moscow!”
Ukrainian language created by Grushevsky out of Galitchian dialects and Polish language was alien to Malorussia and prompted fierce criticism from Malorussian Ukrainian nationalists. Nechuy-Levytsky was writing: “Grushevsky is mocking the language of the Ukrainian Writers… All these countless Polish words shoved in from Galitchian books at random, all these Galichian strange words, all of these Galichian grammar, all of it is like guns and cannons with which the newspaper writers keep the country's broad audience off Ukrainian Literature” Nechuy-Levytsky I.S. False mirror of ukrainian language. K. 1912
Gorlenko: «What is passing now for malorussian language doesn’t look like anything. Of course, these gentlemen (Grushevsky & C0) are not to blame for the fact that there are no words for abstract and new concepts, but they are guilty of taking upon themselves a creation of a language while being deeply talentless. I get Poltavsky «Our Region» and almost can not read it!» Doroshkevich A. Estet and landlord / / Life and revolution. 1925. Number 11. - P.66.
Y. Shevelev: «Ukrainization actually relied only on the Ukrainian Communist intelligentsia, very thin layer of society. Working and middle classes were at best indifferent. I do not have any information about any enthusiasm among the peasants ».
Little wonder Stalin methods were needed to force Ukrainians to learn “their native” language.
Following the policy of support for anti-Russian ukrainophiles Austro-Hungarians oppressed russophiles of Galitchina, and by the start of WW1 built the first concentration camps in Europe – Terezin and Tallergoph specifically for Orthodox, Russians, Ruthenians and rusophiles. Locals were encouraged to give away anyone Russian or pro-Russian. Hundreds of thousands were murdered; many more fled leaving Galitchina to anti-Russian ukrainophiles and their ideas.
In 1922 Poland took over Galitchina. And while Poles continued encouraging anti-Russian sentiment in locals they no longer relied on Ukrainians in a standoff with now the Soviet Union. Thus Polish attitude and treatment of their Ukrainians: by 1939 in the whole of what is now Western Ukraine there were only about 300 elementary schools, needless to say Ukrainian language was not part of high education; there were restrictions on the number of Ukrainians living in Lviv: 7.8% of Lviv population were Ukrainians mainly employed as servants and manual labourers (by comparison in 1989 population of the city was 79.1% Ukrainian). Ukrainians were regarded by Poles as peasants and often referred to as "budlo" in the sense of working animals. This treatment fuelled Ukrainian nationalism to epic proportions, and there is nothing more hideous then yesterday's slave turned master, hence, in 1941 Ukrainian nationalists sided with Hitler and started cleansing "their land" of all non-Ukrainians and those Ukrainians who disagreed with them.
Galitchian nationalists under German protection burned Belorussian and Slovak villages (with their inhabitants), took part in suppression of Warsaw uprising, committed mass murder of Kievans in Baby Yar, mass murder of Jews in Lviv, genocide of Poles in Volyn, etc.
After the war many of them ended up in US, Canada and Western Germany shaping up the so called Ukrainian Diaspora; their hatred for Russia and the Soviet Union became useful for the purpose of the Cold War.
Meanwhile, in the USSR government went to considerable length to tone down the crimes committed by Galitchian nationalists. Propaganda machine was working overtime promoting “feelings of brotherhood” between West-Ukrainians and East-Ukrainians, and at the same time feeding ideas of ethnic and cultural separatism from anything Russian – the basis of Galitchian nationalism!
While science and industry were left alone and continued developing in Russian (East-Ukrainian) sphere, ideology, culture, media were given to Galitchian intelligencia that promoted Ukrainian nationalism.
That is why in 1992 Ukraine ended up in Galitchian ideological field. Without anti-Russian Galitchian nationalism Ukraine is just Southern Russia. You take Galitchina out of Ukraine and it will become what it always was – a Russian province, because the sole meaning of the existence of Ukraine is to be anti-Russian.
And now we have it:
Ruthenians hate Galitchians and about two years ago (?) declared their independence from Ukraine...
Crimea consideres itself under temporary Ukrainian occupation (hates Galitchians)...
East of Ukraine wants reunification with Russia (hates Galitchians)...
Center wants closer economic ties with Russia (don't hate Galitchians, but don't want them nearby either)...
West-Ukraine (three districts, including Galitchina) hate Russia, hate the rest of Ukraine, but don't want to separate either because are concerned Poland and Romania will absorb them, and they hate Poles...
No, you did not "counter" anything. You attempted to find reasons to stick to your previous propaganda-induced clap-trap. I mean, before I presented newspaper articles, film stills and photos to you, you did not have a clue that the US, UK, Poland, etc. also had "Holodomor", -- so what DISCUSSION one can have with you on the subject you are so profoundly clueless?!
Please, give concise examples of "Soviet communist propaganda" with a link to or at least a direction to a source of such "soviet communist propaganda".
No one is aware of "Holodomor" in the US, UK, Poland, etc. because IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. I already explained in depth every event you were claiming was evidence. erasure even went through the trouble of translating the articles, which I also provided statements on. In the photos you are taking the name "Hunger Marches" literally, when that isn't what was going on. The name was carefully chosen by the communist organizers of those marches, but the marches themselves had nothing to do with "hunger".
You have also continually ignored a very basic question that I asked you. Forget about any claims of genocide. As erasure and I have been discussing, I think such a claim may be tenuous and is reliant on twisting the definition of genocide. So, putting the question of "genocide" aside, did millions of Soviet people in the early 1930's, particularly in the Ukraine, die as a result of famine caused by Soviet policies under Stalin? Yes or no?
You really need me to provide a former citizen of the Soviet Union with examples of Soviet propaganda? I'm assuming you have no concept of what is called "Agitprop"? The term is the translation of a Russian word that is a shortened form of: "отдел агитации и пропаганды". It's name in English was the "Department for Agitation and Propaganda" which later became the "Ideological Department". Now, while the word "propaganda" has since taken on a negative meaning, at the time in Russian it simply meant the dissemination of ideas both political and knowledge based. Agitation simply meant encouraging people to do what the government wanted them to do. So, while the name is a little sinister and amusing to westerners its meaning in Russian was a little more benign.
The "agitprop" composed everything from posters and radio messages to plays performed by travelling theaters. Here are some examples of classic Soviet "agitprop":
This one encourages workers to join "shock brigades/strike labor" aka "Udarniks":
This one shows happy healthy people encouraging their comrades to come and join their Kolkhoz:
A poster that reads, "On our collective there is no room for priests or kulaks":
A photo, since you love them so much. The sign reads, "We kolkhoz farmers are liquidating the kulaks as a class, on the basis of complete collectivization."
Another poster since I liked the message in this one. "Let's destroy the kulaks as a class":
Finally, this quote from the link above about arts and culture:
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On 26 January 1936 Stalin went to the opera in Moscow. The opera was Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District, the composer the 29-year-old Dimitri Shostakovich. Two days later the party organ Pravda published an editorial titled Muddle Instead of Music. The article raged: "Singing is replaced by shrieking. … The music quacks, hoots, growls and gasps to express the love scenes as naturally as possible." The opera is "tickling the perverted taste of the bourgeoisie with its fidgety, screaming neurotic music". And as a warning to Russia's artistic community: "The ability of good music to enthrall the masses has been sacrificed on the altar of petit-bourgeois formalism. This is playing at abstruseness - and such games can only finish badly."
No one is aware of "Holodomor" in the US, UK, Poland, etc. because IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.
In the photos you are taking the name "Hunger Marches" literally, when that isn't what was going on.
1. Not "no one", but those who study history by watching US propaganda movies and reading too much of Dr Goebbels.
Anyway, let's re-examine the pages of the US papers regarding famine in Galitchina and Volun. You do know that until 1939 they were part of Poland, don't you?
Українські Щоденні Вісті
"Famine in the West Ukraine is spreading"
"Death from starvation is lording in the villages of Gutsulshina. Letter from Lviv."
TransCarpathia was a territory of Czech republic until 1945, so this "Ukrainian Holodomor" happened in Czech republic
"15000children of TransCarpathian Ukraine are under threat of death from starvation."
Back to Poland:
"Three peasants: two Ukrainians and one Pole, were sentenced to death for taking part in a rising in Lviv province".
If you will look up Polish newspaper Nowe Godziny (1932) you will learn that "On Hutsulshina the number of starving farming families reached 88,6%..."
Did Stalin cause it?
Out of all the photos I provided you with let's just look at this one (1934 Britain):
Do my eyes deceive me or is it written on the banners: "Against Hunger and War" and "Against Starvation"?! Of course, they didn't have YOU to tell them they were not starving!
And the loss of 5 to 7 million people in US during US "Holodomor" is nothing to talk about!
Well, here we go again. You've, yet again, managed to dodge the question. So, I will ask it AGAIN...
True or False? Millions of Soviet citizens died from famine caused directly by Stalins policies enacted in the 1930's to force collectivization.
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Originally Posted by Alma1
1. Not "no one", but those who study history by watching US propaganda movies and reading too much of Dr Goebbels.
lol, US propaganda movies? Which ones would those be, "The Wizard of Oz"?
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Anyway, let's re-examine the pages of the US papers regarding famine in Galitchina and Volun. You do know that until 1939 they were part of Poland, don't you?
I believe we have already established the fact that I know that the area now encompassed as the Ukraine was at that time divided between Poland, Czechoslovakia and the Soviet Union.
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Українські Щоденні Вісті
"Famine in the West Ukraine is spreading"
"Death from starvation is lording in the villages of Gutsulshina. Letter from Lviv."
TransCarpathia was a territory of Czech republic until 1945, so this "Ukrainian Holodomor" happened in Czech republic
"15000children of TransCarpathian Ukraine are under threat of death from starvation."
Back to Poland:
"Three peasants: two Ukrainians and one Pole, were sentenced to death for taking part in a rising in Lviv province".
If you will look up Polish newspaper Nowe Godziny (1932) you will learn that "On Hutsulshina the number of starving farming families reached 88,6%..."
Did Stalin cause it?
I already responded in detail to the articles you posted. The one from Poland you are taking completely out of context. The people suffering starvation are the Hutsuls who suffered heavily from the various wars in the 1920's and were subsisting off donated food. When the Polish government engaged in their "pacification campaign" against the Ukrainian Nationalists, part of the requirement was for the local peasants to feed the troops. This caused famine among the Hutsuls. It is not evident of mass starvation in that region. Additionally, Ukrainian and Jewish papers were furiously writing to promote indpendence and nationalism among the people of the area. Using the image of starving Hutsuls was powerful for stirring up nationalist sentiment.
The article about TransCarpathia speaks of people "under threat of starvation". This region was traditionally poor and always on the brink of starvation. Many articles were written, many from communist agitators organizing the locals to press for re-incorporation into Soviet Ukraine. The article you quoted is simply repeating the claims of two "community leaders" from the region who expressed their concerns to the Czech government.
Once again, find me ONE SOURCE that isn't a newspaper. If Polish, Czech, British and American famine was so widespread and horrible, why isn't there a single source I can find for it other then the obscure ones you post? Find me one research article published by an academic house talking about it. There is a MASSIVE volume of research written on what was happening in the Soviet Union and in particular in the Ukraine, so it isn't even necessary to post links. A two second google search will uncover thousands of them. Certainly, the vast fascist, bourgeosie, capitalist conspiracy could not be so all encompassing as to wipe out all records of such events taking place.
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Out of all the photos I provided you with let's just look at this one (1934 Britain):
Do my eyes deceive me or is it written on the banners: "Against Hunger and War" and "Against Starvation"?! Of course, they didn't have YOU to tell them they were not starving!
The entirety of the "hunger marches" in Britain were organized by the labor unions, in particular the miners unions who were protesting unemployment and the limited assistance available to them do to the imposition of the "means test". The particular march in 1934 was organized to protest the passing of the "Unemployment Insurance Bill" which set national rates for unemployment compensation and didn't allow for local variances.
Cited weblink about the marches in Britain: Hunger Marches
Read it and tell me how many times it mentions "famine and starvation". Here is the opening "mission statement":
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The National Government representing the capitalist class has carried through a continuous and terrible economy offensive against the working class. At the same time it has steadily increased its powers of oppression (Police re-organisation, the use of Edward III Act, etc.) and the advance towards open dictatorship.
A new drastic step is now being taken in the launching of the new Unemployment Bill.
This is the most far-reaching attack that has yet seen been made on the workers of this country - an attack not only aimed at new heavy economies but especially directed towards the destruction of working-class organisations and the enslavement of the working class.
The unemployed are to be divided one section against the other-those who are insurable and those who are what Macdonald called "scrap". The employed are to be separated from the unemployed through new regulations affecting strike activity.
Dictatorial powers are placed in the hands of such reactionary bodies as the Unemployment Assistance Board, the Insurance Fund Statutory Commission and the Ministry of Labour.
The Bill aims at removing hundreds of thousands of claimants from the Unemployment Insurance Funds, casting the main responsibility for the maintenance of the unemployed upon the localities, tightening up the Means Test and thereby increasing the burden upon the families and relatives of the unemployed.
It seeks to turn the unemployed into an army of conscript labour to work without wages under slave conditions in Labour Camps - similar to those established by Hitler under the German Fascist Dictatorship-in industrial training centres, on re-conditioning and public work schemes, etc., which formerly have been carried out under Trade Union conditions. It aims a most deadly blow at Trade Unionism and the principles and standards which for generations have been fought for and established by the working-class movement. It is a strike breaking Bill, framed to penalise workers and their families who become associated with strikes and lock-outs for the protection or advance of their living standards.
Wow, all those words railing against capitalist dictatorships, yet not one mention of the word "hunger", "famine" or "starvation". If they were in such dire straights to be gripped by famine like the poor people of the Soviet Union were, you would think that would be a central them. You know what is central, money and power. The government was tightening the standards for unemployment insurance, they protested. On top of that they were very upset about the government placing unemployed youth into "labor camps" and employing them in public projects (for which they were paid, housed and fed). Why? Why would the communists be upset about this? The reason is that their power existed solely in the trade unions. This "labor force" was not unionized and was taking away jobs from their support base. That is why the marches happened.
Among the entire document there are three paragraphs related to "hunger". Nowhere does it talk about people starving to death or famine. What it instead cites is a report from a handful of doctors that, "after conducting an exhaustive 9 month study" established a minimum amount of money needed to pay for food for a family. It then goes on to claim that workers under the current relief programs after paying rents only get about 90% of this amount with nothing left over for other necessities like clothes. Not surprisingly they are primarily arguing against this new lower level of benefits and the extension of the "Means Test" and that they need more money and better working/employment conditions.
The "hunger marches" were not a march against starvation it was a march of labor organized by communist leaders to secure greater worker rights and compensation and protest the labor teams doing "union work". The idea of "hunger" was so far removed from the equation that they could only speak to it through vague reports by medical experts and even then only discussed in terms of cost of food. If these people were dieing from famine you think that would be their primary concern. The majority of the marches in Britain contained less then 2,500 people. The largest swelled to 100,000 in London, but London was overrun with young unemployed men, not surprising they joined a protest that wanted to secure more rights for the unemployed.
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And the loss of 5 to 7 million people in US during US "Holodomor" is nothing to talk about!
Back to old Borisov again? Find me one source that backs up or verifies Borisov's claim. The most liberal of American researchers will only go so far as to say that an additional 2 million deaths can be attributed to a variety of causes do to the effect of the Great Depression. NO ONE claims anything approaching the idea of "famine" or large scale deaths as a result of the Depression.
So, I will ask again, answer the question I posted first. Second, if you want to continue to spew this tripe, why don't you try sources that aren't images of old newspapers and some protesting workers. Find me ANYTHING from an actual academic source that can back up your claims.
1. True or False? Millions of Soviet citizens died from famine
2. caused directly by Stalins policies enacted in the 1930's to force collectivization.
3. I believe we have already established the fact that I know that the area now encompassed as the Ukraine was at that time divided between Poland, Czechoslovakia and the Soviet Union.
4. I already responded in detail to the articles you posted. The one from Poland you are taking completely out of context. The people suffering starvation are the Hutsuls who suffered heavily from the various wars in the 1920's and were subsisting off donated food. When the Polish government engaged in their "pacification campaign" against the Ukrainian Nationalists, part of the requirement was for the local peasants to feed the troops. This caused famine among the Hutsuls. It is not evident of mass starvation in that region. Additionally, Ukrainian and Jewish papers were furiously writing to promote indpendence and nationalism among the people of the area. Using the image of starving Hutsuls was powerful for stirring up nationalist sentiment.
5. The article about TransCarpathia speaks of people "under threat of starvation". This region was traditionally poor and always on the brink of starvation. Many articles were written, many from communist agitators organizing the locals to press for re-incorporation into Soviet Ukraine. The article you quoted is simply repeating the claims of two "community leaders" from the region who expressed their concerns to the Czech government.
6. Once again, find me ONE SOURCE that isn't a newspaper.
7. The entirety of the "hunger marches" in Britain were organized by the labor unions,
unemployed.
8. Back to old Borisov again? Find me one source that backs up or verifies Borisov's claim.
1. Soviet citizens (not only "Ukrainians") did die from famine. How many died from famine we don't know because at the time the reason of death was not always stated. There fore we can know only the overall number of death: from famine, illness, accidents, murder, old age...
2. If Stalin caused famine in the Soviet Union, who caused famine in Poland, Hungary, Romania, etc.?
3. Who established? Ukrainian SSR was created by puting together MaloRUSSIA, NovoRUSSIA, Slobozhanshina, Severshina, Territory of ARMY of DON. What is now Western Ukraine was annexed and occupied by Poland, Czech and Romania in 1920-s.
4. So what if "people suffering from STARVATION" were Hutsuls?! Are they subhuman, that you consider it OK for Polish government to starve them and when they REBEL use death squads and military against the peasants in ""pacification campaign"?! And why is it 88,6% starving households you consider "not evident of mass starvation"? Nice attitude!
5. Wow! So the WHOLE OF THE REGION was ALWAYS on a brink of starvation?! Did Stalin organise it?! Besides, I gave you only one photo of one article; why don't you go to the library and ask to read US newspapers for 1932-1936?
6. What, now you don't like YOUR media reports? Why is that?
7. And whom did you expect to organise starving unemployed people, the King?
Do you know what happens when you lose your job? That's right: you have no money to pay for your lodgings (you become homeless), you have no money to buy clothes (you end up dressed in rags), you have no money to buy food (you starve); and homelessness, no weather appropriate clothes and starvation also lead to illnesses, and since you have no money you can't afford a doctor or medical treatments.
Btw, all this is now happening in US, are you aware of that?
8. And what's wrong with HISTORIC FINDINGS by Borisov, he is "an actual academic source" after all? After all, you use "historic findings" by US "historians".
Why don't you compare two censuses: taken BEFORE "Great Depression" and AFTER?
1. Soviet citizens (not only "Ukrainians") did die from famine. How many died from famine we don't know because at the time the reason of death was not always stated. There fore we can know only the overall number of death: from famine, illness, accidents, murder, old age...
How many was it? Certainly plenty of academics offer up numbers on those who died from famine. Of course, you don't believe any academics, even Russian ones that have wrote extensively on this matter.
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2. If Stalin caused famine in the Soviet Union, who caused famine in Poland, Hungary, Romania, etc.?
First off there wasn't one, yet again, we've been over that.
Secondly, if your point number "4" is to be believed, apparently it was the Polish government starving people in western Ukraine. So, which was it, the Polish government or just general famine? If it was the Polish government, then why not the actions of the Soviet government? You want me to believe that the famine was widespread and being suffered by all people in that area, yet you then turn around and accuse the Poles of engineering it to punish Hutsuls? So, which is it?
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3. Who established? Ukrainian SSR was created by puting together MaloRUSSIA, NovoRUSSIA, Slobozhanshina, Severshina, Territory of ARMY of DON. What is now Western Ukraine was annexed and occupied by Poland, Czech and Romania in 1920-s.
It was not annexed per se. It would take volumes to write out what happened, but study the West Ukrainian Peoples Repbulic, its merger with the Ukrainian Peoples Republic (aka Directorate) At one point, Ukraine was allied with Poland in a war against Soviet Russia, well at least its "national" government was, the other Soviet backed government in Kiev wasn't. Fast forward through the endless mess of the revolution where Ukrainian, Polish, Soviet, White and foreign armies ravaged the whole area and we end up at the Peace of Riga. The Soviets gave Poland Western Ukraine and the remaining areas south and east were formed into Soviet Ukraine. The TransCarpathia territories never ceded from the Austro-Hungarian Empire and were incorporated into Czechoslovakia at the treaty of Versailles.
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4. So what if "people suffering from STARVATION" were Hutsuls?! Are they subhuman, that you consider it OK for Polish government to starve them and when they REBEL use death squads and military against the peasants in ""pacification campaign"?! And why is it 88,6% starving households you consider "not evident of mass starvation"? Nice attitude!
No, I don't think the Hutsuls deserved anything. However, it was important to state who the Hutsuls are/were. They're an ethnic minority numbering around 20,000. They are basically equivalent to "gypsy's" in other areas of Europe. Speaking of them starving is an incredible microcosm of that area and not representative of the whole. Hence, it is not "mass starvation" when we are talking about 88.6% of families that are from an ethnic minority numbering around 20,000 in a country of nearly 5 million.
You also really need to look into the acts of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists. They were not happy being a part of Poland and either were the Jewish minority. The OUN began a terror campaign burning and destroying Polish property and assassinating Polish and moderate Ukrainian leaders. That is what the "pacification" was responding to. According to historical accounts it is estimated that 35 people died during the pacification. Of course, it was incredibly disruptive and only worked to further nationalist sentiment. You should be familair with the OUN because they fought everyone that tried to govern that area, including the Soviet Union with acts of terror being carried out as late as 1958 resulting in crack downs and arrests.
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5. Wow! So the WHOLE OF THE REGION was ALWAYS on a brink of starvation?! Did Stalin organise it?! Besides, I gave you only one photo of one article; why don't you go to the library and ask to read US newspapers for 1932-1936?
The whole region was always incredibly poor. There was a concerted effort among communist leaders to gain greater recognition for the people there in Czechoslovakia. The Czech government resettled about 50,000 people there to open up schools and work as adminsitrators. The communist agitators used the difference between the adminsitrators lifestyles and the peasants lifestyles to try and stir up communist support to get that area to merge with Soviet Ukraine. The article you posted was a propaganda piece.
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6. What, now you don't like YOUR media reports? Why is that?
The media is fickle and will report what it wants. Here's a newspaper article for you:
You want to believe what's written there as gospel truth? Point being you can find a newspaper or media article that says many different things. Some of them may be true, some of them of not true.
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7. And whom did you expect to organise starving unemployed people, the King?
Do you know what happens when you lose your job? That's right: you have no money to pay for your lodgings (you become homeless), you have no money to buy clothes (you end up dressed in rags), you have no money to buy food (you starve); and homelessness, no weather appropriate clothes and starvation also lead to illnesses, and since you have no money you can't afford a doctor or medical treatments.
Except, none of that was the case with those people. I'm not saying that they didn't live poorly and have issues, but they were receiving local and national assistance. I posted what the entire thing was organized over from the horses mouth. I showed you the "manifesto" for the march and what they were after. There was no massive famine gripping Britain or anywhere else, except for the Soviet Union. You would think if the issue was so massive and the people so famished, they could manage to get more then a token amount of people to show up for the protests.
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Btw, all this is now happening in US, are you aware of that?
Oh yes. I see massive amounts of unemployed people starving on the streets everyday. The government is going door-to-door and forcing people to go to labor camps. I went to buy a loaf of bread to feed my children and the store would only take gold, I had to give them my wedding ring. The press has been censored and now all we hear are messages about Hope and Change. We are greatful though as we have the Great Uniter Barack Obama to lead us into a glorious future where the government will care for the needs of all of its citizens. My family has already placed his picture prominently in our home to show our support so the police don't question our loyalty when they perform their "compliance checks".
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8. And what's wrong with HISTORIC FINDINGS by Borisov, he is "an actual academic source" after all? After all, you use "historic findings" by US "historians".
Why don't you compare two censuses: taken BEFORE "Great Depression" and AFTER?
I did and I already posted the numbers. When you control for the declining birth rate do to the Depression, drastic decrease in immigration and increase in emigration, you net out to about 2 million additional deaths over the course of a decade do to the effects of the Great Depression. Still, the US population increased by almost 8% over that same time period. Taken as a whole the "additional deaths" would represent 00.16% of the US population that MAY have died do to the impacts of the Depression.
1. How many was it? Certainly plenty of academics offer up numbers
2. First off there wasn't one, yet again, we've been over that.
3. Secondly, if your point number "4" is to be believed, apparently it was the Polish government starving people in western Ukraine. So, which was it, the Polish government or just general famine?
4. If it was the Polish government, then why not the actions of the Soviet government? You want me to believe that the famine was widespread and being suffered by all people in that area, yet you then turn around and accuse the Poles of engineering it to punish Hutsuls? So, which is it?
5. It was not annexed per se. It would take volumes to write out what happened, but study the West Ukrainian Peoples Repbulic, its merger with the Ukrainian Peoples Republic (aka Directorate) At one point,
6. No, I don't think the Hutsuls deserved anything. However, it was important to state who the Hutsuls are/were. They're an ethnic minority numbering around 20,000. They are basically equivalent to "gypsy's" in other areas of Europe. Speaking of them starving is an incredible microcosm of that area and not representative of the whole. Hence, it is not "mass starvation" when we are talking about 88.6% of families that are from an ethnic minority numbering around 20,000 in a country of nearly 5 million.
1. The ESTIMATED figure for the whole of the Soviet Union stands between 3 million and 7 million.
2. "Academic" is not the same as "omnipresent"; and when "academics" use their name to fulfill political orders by conjuring numbers, they become charlatans.
3. Polish newspapers of the time say that it was; US newspapers of the time say that it was; German newspapers of the time say that it was; Romanian newspapers of the time say that it was; UK newspapers of the time say that it was; but YOU insist that it wasn't! What, Dr Goebbels who brought you "Ukrainian Holodomor" did not mention it?
4. You tell me! According to YOU there was no famine in Poland! Or did you change your mind now? Because I don't mind: if Stalin organised famine in the USSR, then Polish government organised it in Poland; German government organised it in Germany; Czech government organised famine in Czech republic; UK government organised it in UK; US government organised it in US, etc. You choose, but it's either one or the other: either the governments of ALL respective countries organised famines in their states, or it was just yet another famine that affected and Europe, and Asia, and Africa, and N.America (I don't know about Australia and S.America)!
5. I will help you with your "volumes of writing". From what you already wrote, I guess you don't have much understanding of what was going on in the Russian Empire after 1917. Well, between 1917 and 1922 on a territory of what is now Ukraine existed and co-existed about 18 "states", the territories of some were overlapping, some existed inside the others... I'll give you a brief picture of only a small part of what is now Ukraine:
After the Poles were given freedom to unite and form their own country, Galitchians also decided to do the same. On the 1 of November 1918 they declared West Ukrainian Peoples' Republic with the government and Galitchian Army under the command of Austrian officers. Poles had patience for it for a whopping 3 days, and on the 4 of November Polish legionnaires staged an uprising in Lviv. From the South Galitchian Army was attacked by Romanians. For 6 months the government was hopping from town to town until it ended up on the other side of the river Zbrych with the army, but without the territory.
It happened that where they landed there was yet another "state" -- Ukrainian Peoples' Republic that had a government and a territory, but no army to speak of. In December 1918 the two governments united their states.
Now, in 1917 Ukrainian Peoples' Republic declared itself part of Russia. But a month later the First Congress of Soviet Ukrainians outlawed Ukrainian Peoples' Republic and declared Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic instead with the capital in Kharkov. In January 1918 Ukrainian Peoples' Republic declared its independence from Russia with the capital in Kiev. Out of 600 000 Kievans only few military units associated themselves with "ukrainians" and Ukrainian Peoples' Republic, among them there was Volun Regiment -- the very same that started bolshevik revolution in Petrograd. By mid-January Kievan factory workers started an uprising in Kiev, they reached a stale-mate with the forces loyal to the government, but then the workers took over the water station and turned off water supply to the wealthier parts of Kiev causing much commotion since the well to do who were supportive of the White Russian movement anyway, were becoming increasingly disgrantled at their excrements hanging around their lavatories. The situation was described as a "desaster" by Kievan papers of the time. To make matters worse Volyn Regiment joined the workers, and only the coming of Petlura saved the Ukrainian Peoples' Republic. Not for long. On the 26 of January the Red Army entered Kiev.
In January of 1918 two more "states" were proclaimed: Donetsk-Krivorozh Soviet Republic and Odessa Soviet Republic.
The Central Rada (the government of Ukrainian Peoples' Republic) retreated to Volyn.
In February - April the Germans occupied most of what is now Ukraine and restored Ukrainian Peoples' Republic. At the end of April they dissolved Ukrainian Peoples' Republic and put Getman Scoropadsky in charge who declared himself a dictator and his "state" -- Ukrainian Dictatoria.
In July 1918 Batka Mahno organised a partisan unit to fight both Germans and Dictatoria. By October his unit grew to a sise of an army. Mahno became a leader of a large military community with the capital in a village Gulay-Pole.
In Autumn 1918 ataman Zeleny (green) organised a 3000-strong partisan unit and supported by the local peasants fought successfuly against Getman Scoropadsky. He even went on Kiev, but met Petlura's units and joined them instead.
Between November 1918 and February 1919 French, Italians, British and Greeks invaded Odesa, Nikolayev, Herson, Sevastopol.
In December 1918 as the Germans were leaving Ukraine an abandoned dictator became an easy prey. Petlura took Kiev, declared Ukrainian Directoria and signed an act of unity with West Ukrainian Peoples' Republic. The locals were not too friendly towards the "ukrainian" armies. The diary of Galitchian Army states: "the locals shoot at our cosaks who gather hey for the horses." After the peasants attacked one of Galitchian units killing few, a directive was issued to use mortars on any village that is deemed hostile, then enter for provisions.
In December Mahno joined the Reds.
In January 1919 ataman Nikiforova (a woman) joined the Reds against Ukrainian Directoria.
Ataman Kotsur declares his Republic in Chegoria and fights against Petlura.
By February 1919 the Reds took most of what is now Ukraine, including Kiev.
The former government of Ukrainian Peoples' Republic put together some military might and took sides with the Reds against Petlura.
The same month Mahno distanced himself from the Reds and became a symbol of peasant freedomhood against an institution of state and towns (he hated towns).
By the end of February Mahno once again joined the Reds and became one of the commanders. He fought Denikin in Mariupol.
In Spring 1919 an ataman Grigoriev joined the Reds and cleared Odessa, Herson, Sevastopol and Nikolayev off the foreign invaders.
On the 10 of April Mahno and three other former atamans who joined the Reds signed a protest where they accused the communists of betraying the ideals of revolution. Five days later Mahno helped the Red Army to suppress a mutiny of ataman Grigoriev.
In May Mahno supported the initiative to create a separate Army of rebels. In June he sever relations with the Red Army, sent Lenin a telegram where he expressed his undying support for the revolution and continued fighting against Denikin and Petlura.
In mid Summer Mahno again was agitating the peasants to support the Reds.
On the 30 of August 1919 the Reds left Kiev in a hurry... The following day from the right bank of the river Dnepr Petlura's Army was enterring Kiev. They were pleasantly surprised that the Reds already cleared off, and did not know that from the left bank of the river Dnepr the White Army of Denikin was also enterring Kiev. Denikin knew about Petlura since the Whites used airplanes for reconnaissance the previous day. And so, in the morning the two armies met on the central square of Kiev. The command of the armies started negotiations while waiting for Petlura who was ment to enter Kiev astride a white steed. But then, one of Petlura's officers decided he didn't like the look of a Russian flag. He ordered his men to throw it to the ground and run his horse over it a couple of times... Now, the crowd of onlookers that gathered there was decidedly pro-Russian and didn't like what they saw. A shot was fired, and Petlura's units panicked and ran. A diary of Galitchian Army describes the events: "the shooting ensured; from the roofs, the windows and the balkonies the civilians were also shooting at us. There we left 10 cosaks killed and also 7 horses killed. Zoporozhsky cosaks were running in such haste they even left their mortars." The Whites disarmed the rest of Petlura's Army and ordered them to leave Kiev. Which they did.
In August ataman Zeleny left Petlura and with his two divisions went on fighting the Reds.
In September 1919 Mahno declared a Peasant Republic behind the Denikin lines.
In September 1919 Zeleny rejoined Petlura and fought against Denikin Army.
In November the Galitchian Army joined Denikin.
By mid December the Reds were back in Kiev. The Galitchian Army joined the Reds.
In April 1920 Petlura returned to Ukraine with the Polish Army and on the 7 of May Poles took Kiev. On the 10 of June the Red Army pushed Poles and Petlura out of Kiev.
Add to it around a hundred small "atamans" (five of them had nick-names "Black Raven") ...
......................
What I gave you was a bold outline of the most significant events around Kiev predominantly. No details. I did not touch upon Crimea, or Donbass...
6. "Hutsulshina" doesn't mean that only Hutsuls lived there! Also, not only Hutsuls were affected by famine! Hence your argument flies out of the window to join the rest of your arguments based on you ignorance. And even if Hutsulshina was populated exclusively by Hutsuls, your suggestion that 88,6% of them were nothing to concern oneself with betrays your true nature.
1. You also really need to look into the acts of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists. They were not happy being a part of Poland and either were the Jewish minority. The OUN began a terror campaign burning and destroying Polish property and assassinating Polish and moderate Ukrainian leaders. That is what the "pacification" was responding to.
2. The whole region was always incredibly poor.
3. The media is fickle and will report what it wants. Here's a newspaper article for you:
4. Except, none of that was the case with those people. I'm not saying that they didn't live poorly and have issues,
5. Oh yes. I see massive amounts of unemployed people starving on the streets everyday.
6. I did and I already posted the numbers. When you control for the declining birth rate do to the Depression, drastic decrease in immigration and increase in emigration, you net out to about 2 million additional deaths over the course of a decade do to the effects of the Great Depression. Still, the US population increased by almost 8% over that same time period. Taken as a whole the "additional deaths" would represent 00.16% of the US population that MAY have died do to the impacts of the Depression.
1. OUN aside, Ukrainian colonies of Poland saw MASS UPRISINGS in response to famine and Polish general cruelty towards the local population. Why do you think OUN became so popular in Galitchina? And mentioned by you "pacification campaign" included mass executions of peasants.
2. It was not poor when it became part of the Soviet Union! And your words just underline the fact of gross abuse the locals suffered at the hands of Czech government, or do you have better explanation as to why that region was not given the necessary attention and developed accordingly?
3. Really???!!! So, when you use your media to illustrate your points -- it is "gospel truth"; but when your media of the past rub your nose in everyday news of widespread famine in Europe and US -- it becomes "fickle"?! And I thought, you would love Nazi papers since you took Dr Goebbels "Ukrainian Holodomor" as a "gospel truth"!
4. "Issues"? Yes, they did have "issues"! And they even outlined those "issues" on their banners: Hunger and Starvation! But thank you for telling them they were wrong!
5. I suppose, all those Americans who eat out of the street bins, get no medical treatment and live in boxes are doing it out of love for al-fresco life-style... Btw, how many tent cities do US have now?
O, and don't sally Stalin's image of a great leader by shoving into it your slippery corporate puppet Obama.
6. And where did you get the number from? Would it be from the census the US government destroyed after the effects of your "Great Depression" became known?
1. The ESTIMATED figure for the whole of the Soviet Union stands between 3 million and 7 million.
There is no direct consensus and the numbers all come down to whom you believe. The latest RUSSIAN estimates (from the Academy of Sciences based on extensive archival research) are that roughly 7 million died from famine between 1930 and 1934 with roughly 3 million being Ukrainian.
Then we have people like Anatoliy Vlasyuk who place the number in the Ukraine alone at between 7.5 and 10 million. Timothy Snyder pegs the number at round 4.5 million in the Ukraine while admitting that this number is most likely "on the low side". Norman Naimark pegs the total numbers at over 10 million in just the 1930's. Geoffrey Wheatcroft pegs the number at 5 million just in 1932. Robert Conquest began at 20 million between collectization and purges in the 1930's, but has since revised the number down to 13-15 million. Alec Nove in concert with Russian historians puts the number at 11 million between famine and purges in the 1930's alone. None of these numbers include what happened in the 1920's during Lenin's abortive attempt at collectivization.
Important to note is the book shows that modern Soviet textbooks in use at the end of the Soviet era teach that the number was 40 million. This was based on the work of Roy Medvedev and Andrei Sakharov among other prominent Russian historians during the Soviet period who took a critical view of Stalin and his policies.
So, it would appear that the estimates are a little higher and generally in the 10 million range. Care to share your source?
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2. "Academic" is not the same as "omnipresent"; and when "academics" use their name to fulfill political orders by conjuring numbers, they become charlatans.
So, you believe your charlatans and I'll believe mine.
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3. Polish newspapers of the time say that it was; US newspapers of the time say that it was; German newspapers of the time say that it was; Romanian newspapers of the time say that it was; UK newspapers of the time say that it was; but YOU insist that it wasn't! What, Dr Goebbels who brought you "Ukrainian Holodomor" did not mention it?
We've been over the newspaper thing. No one accepts a news article as a primary source unless it is vetted and sourced to primary material.
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4. You tell me! According to YOU there was no famine in Poland! Or did you change your mind now? Because I don't mind: if Stalin organised famine in the USSR, then Polish government organised it in Poland; German government organised it in Germany; Czech government organised famine in Czech republic; UK government organised it in UK; US government organised it in US, etc. You choose, but it's either one or the other: either the governments of ALL respective countries organised famines in their states, or it was just yet another famine that affected and Europe, and Asia, and Africa, and N.America (I don't know about Australia and S.America)!
I'm telling you because there wasn't one. There is also no natural explanation for the "famine" in the Ukraine and Soviet Union. Rewind a few pages and I posted the official rainfall and drought and famine reports from Russian sources. There is ZERO natural explanation for the widespread famine in the Soviet Union. There also weren't "famines" anywhere else but there. Even with the US suffering a drought and impact of the Dust Bowl, there as no "famine".
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5. I will help you with your "volumes of writing". From what you already wrote, I guess you don't have much understanding of what was going on in the Russian Empire after 1917. Well, between 1917 and 1922 on a territory of what is now Ukraine existed and co-existed about 18 "states", the territories of some were overlapping, some existed inside the others... I'll give you a brief picture of only a small part of what is now Ukraine:
Thanks for the history "lesson" I was very well aware of what happened, I thought I made that clear.
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6. "Hutsulshina" doesn't mean that only Hutsuls lived there! Also, not only Hutsuls were affected by famine! Hence your argument flies out of the window to join the rest of your arguments based on you ignorance. And even if Hutsulshina was populated exclusively by Hutsuls, your suggestion that 88,6% of them were nothing to concern oneself with betrays your true nature.
Really, who else lives in Hutsulschyna except primarily the Hutsuls. Every website dedicated to Hutsuls says that is their land and while other have settled there over time, the Hutsuls weren't exactly happy about it. Also, since the ONLY source we have is your newspaper article about the "famine" it was translated directly be erasure that it was the "Hutsul families" facing starvation. This is NOT evidence of widespread famine in the Polish controlled areas of Western Ukraine. Again, find me ONE source that says there was a famine in Poland at this time.
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Originally Posted by Alma1
1. OUN aside, Ukrainian colonies of Poland saw MASS UPRISINGS in response to famine and Polish general cruelty towards the local population. Why do you think OUN became so popular in Galitchina? And mentioned by you "pacification campaign" included mass executions of peasants.
There were no "mass uprisings" until the situaiton had spiralled out of control. After Western Ukraine was formerly ceded to Poland and the western Allies recognized the fact in 1922 the vast majority of Ukrainians took the position of working within the Polish political system for furthering Ukrainian needs. The exception to this was the OUN who from the beginning engaged in assassination attempts and sabotage against Polish interests and leaders. Poland made the mistake of taking the position of assimilation of the Ukrainians and forced the use of the Polish language. The Depression impacted the area and led to a lot of unemployed youth. Throughout moderate Ukrainian and Jewish politicians continued to work within the Polish legal system. The OUN carried out a series of 2,200 sabotage attacks in 1930 and that is what led to the "pacifiction". It did NOT involve mass executions of peasants and was entirely limited to Galicia as Volhynia remained relatively peaceful. Estimates for total deaths range from 7-35 according to Orest Subtelny, Ray Brandon and Wendy Lower. If you have another source that proves your "mass executions" then please share it. The result of the pacifications was a flood of people supporting the OUN and the beginning of demonstrations. The OUN also began to seek the support of Nazi Germany.
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2. It was not poor when it became part of the Soviet Union! And your words just underline the fact of gross abuse the locals suffered at the hands of Czech government, or do you have better explanation as to why that region was not given the necessary attention and developed accordingly?
No, I'm sure it was largely ignored. The Czech officials invested little money into the region. Their main work there was building schools to educate the children. The illiteracy rate was over 90% which they had reduced to less then 70% when the war broke out. However, being poor does not mean it was ravished by famine. Sure, the Czech government could have done a better job, no debating that, but what the article was highlighting was that the people needed help.
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3. Really???!!! So, when you use your media to illustrate your points -- it is "gospel truth"; but when your media of the past rub your nose in everyday news of widespread famine in Europe and US -- it becomes "fickle"?! And I thought, you would love Nazi papers since you took Dr Goebbels "Ukrainian Holodomor" as a "gospel truth"!
What media did I use to illustrate my points? That paper I showed you was published in the Ukraine during the Nazi occupation. I believe it says something about promising the peasants a return to private land ownership. I posted it as yet another example of why media is not a valid source. Other then a caricature of Obama and that Nazi paper, every other picture I have posted has been Soviet issued propaganda. I have also not quoted a single media source for any of my points. Unless of course you consider various western universities and Russian research papers to be the equivalent of "media".
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4. "Issues"? Yes, they did have "issues"! And they even outlined those "issues" on their banners: Hunger and Starvation! But thank you for telling them they were wrong!
What, you have nothing else to say? I posted the manifesto and extensive facts about the "hunger marches" and all you can do is point to the picture and say that, "well they had a banner that said starvation". I suppose you'll tell me that you honestly believe that the picture of the peasants marching with a banner that basically said "death to the kulaks as a class" was something those people just decided to do right? You think that was their honest beliefs?
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5. I suppose, all those Americans who eat out of the street bins, get no medical treatment and live in boxes are doing it out of love for al-fresco life-style... Btw, how many tent cities do US have now?
O, and don't sally Stalin's image of a great leader by shoving into it your slippery corporate puppet Obama.
Oh yes, it's horrible over here. So bad I wish I could live in Stalinist Russia. At least when I'm there I could occupy myself standing in a breadline and then return to my state issued apartment. You're absolutely right, America is falling apart, workers of the world unite, power to the people.
As for the image, while I'm not totally supportive of Obama's policies, I really felt bad posting that image. The only thing being sullied there is Obama by implying he has anything in common with that murderous bastard Stalin.
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6. And where did you get the number from? Would it be from the census the US government destroyed after the effects of your "Great Depression" became known?
Oh, now the US manipulates and destroys the census data.
US population 1930: 123,202,624
US population 1940: 132,164,569
I've already been over the discrediting of Borisovs work.
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