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So there should be no debate whether the Moors were black or not and it pisses you off because some people don't believe they were and obviously those people must be extremely prejudiced and ignorant because they don't agree with you seriously grow and and mature! Your acting like a spoiled brat!
NO! I'm not acting like a spoiled brat! You're acting like a delusional person trying to sound smart on the internet. I'm getting tired of people stealing black African identities and accepting it a their own! THATS THE PROBLEM
The reason why I feel topics like this is so important is for someone like myself to expose these false internet scholars who dont know a inch about what they're talking about but go on the internet and try to act like they some kind of professor or something! Its funny because out of all this delusion nobody exposes my evidence but instead voice their white-washed opinions on something they have no knowledge on instead of stating facts! Yes, the Moors were not just one color but the vast majority of the Moors were black people and thats a fact and not the people currently living in Morocco and the funny thing is, is that the American government knows this. Read a book and study for a change!
NO! I'm not acting like a spoiled brat! You're acting like a delusional person trying to sound smart on the internet. I'm getting tired of people stealing black African identities and accepting it a their own! THATS THE PROBLEM
Okay take any of the points I've posted lets debate them what are you disputing.
The reverse is actually true it is the Afro-centrists that are the theives. I don't care at all about what you are tired of sounds like a personal problem.
You are entitled to believe your myths ie. that you are Moorish(now who is the delusional one) so ridiculous.
Buddy I know my paternal line back to 1507 I don't need to claim the accomplishments of some ancient civilization to boost my self-esteem.
You can cry, shout, scream that the Moors were black till the cows come home, but that doesn't amount to a hill of beans LoL(other than some entertainment). Provide some facts to support your assertion. Please do use some good sources it does get tiring reading the same old Afrocentrist delusional crap sources that don't even pass the sniff test.
The reason why I feel topics like this is so important is for someone like myself to expose these false internet scholars who dont know a inch about what they're talking about but go on the internet and try to act like they some kind of professor or something! Its funny because out of all this delusion nobody exposes my evidence but instead voice their white-washed opinions on something they have no knowledge on instead of stating facts! Yes, the Moors were not just one color but the vast majority of the Moors were black people and thats a fact and not the people currently living in Morocco and the funny thing is, is that the American government knows this. Read a book and study for a change!
1.What evidence you have no proof? The DNA study I posted indicating that the sub-Saharan African admixture in Moroccans wasn't introduced until approx. 1,200 years ago in southern Morocco blows out of the water any purported so called evidence you have.
2. Yeah sure the Moors were so black that they were in the Iberian peninsula over 700 years but didn't leave any DNA(no paternal lineages that trace to sub-Saharan Africa).
You just proved to me that you really dont know what your talking about which is why you never exposed any of my evidence to be false! This is not about to be debate this is about to be an embarrassment. The word Moor mean black including by the Webster dictionary, there were Arab Moors, tawny Moors and Egyptian Moors of a lighter hue, you must keep in mind that there interracial relationships voluntary and during the Moorish Law of Conquest. If you have Moorish Blood, then you are Moorish. Look at the movie True Romance. There are a lot of Italians, Spanish, Russians, Turks, Germans, and Jews with Moorish Blood. Some will say that they have black ancestors. Many of them don’t like it, but the truth expels the myth of a lie. The Normans Were Moors. They are the ones that built West Minister where they call England today. The Northern Italians has a percentage of Hannibal blood in them. The Moors conquered Spain The Latinos has a great percentage of Moorish blood even though many of them classify themselves "White" on the application when asked what is your ethnicity?
Moors were in the 16th-century Europe rarely people of distinction. Most of them were imported as slaves in Spain and Portugal. A small number of them were released over the years, but most were employed as servant to their masters. It was termed indentured servants. Only the Congo, which in the late 15th century was Christianized by the Portuguese, had a special status as a black kingdom of which the elite was educated in Portugal. Some Congolese made it as scholar, clerk, musician and jester quite far. Most remained employed in subordinate occupations. In the Netherlands, where the slave status was not recognized, Negroes usually came along as servants of Spanish and Portuguese traders. These were the moors that were converted to Christianity. Some were forced and some volunteered due to the conditions at the time. But why is it so important to show that so-called black or coloured people were part of the European nobility? Codfried's motivation is to show that Europe was never as 'white' as we have been taught. Black people were always in Europe, even among the European nobility. It goes for the same here in North America. Moors were always here.
The Moors are a group of North African population which conquered and ruled Spain and parts of Portugal for more than 700 beginning in 711 AD and ending in 1492 AD. It appears from research that even before this period going back into antiquity, this North African tribe has been synonymous with Iberia. The word Ibero-Maurisian culture used by archaeologists and historians to describe a group of pre-historic people that populated Iberia would underline this linkage. Not many people know that the Moors are Black Africans of Libyan, Moroccan, Nigerien, Nigerian and Senegalese origins. This is due to the deliberate misinformation produced by the Euro-American power establishment, which delights in obfuscating Africa's contribution to the history of mankind, preferring instead to appropriate to itself the glorious attainment of Africans throughout history. By the strategic control of vocabulary, semantics, nomenclature and grammatical acrobatics the academic establishment of Euro-America perpetrates its mendacity. The greatest sort of disempowerment is the loss of cultural and historical perspective by a people. A lack of knowledge of one's history implies an absence of knowledge about ones place in the universe. The erasure (or obfuscation) of African history and culture is the greatest tool employed by this Euro-American power structure to control Africans at home and in the diaspora. In this series on the Moors, we are taken on an excursion through history back to the Moorish kingdom of Spain, to ascertain who those Africans were, what they did and their subsequent significance in European history, even world history.
The original Berbers/Moors were Black Africans who spread from East Africa to Libya and Northwest Africa in the Pre-historic Ages. These people were the founders of various cultures which relics litter caves in the Sahara Desert. They have continuously occupied the central Sahara for more than 40,000 years. Their language Tamazight and its various dialects are recognized as a branch of the Afro-asiatic phylum of African languages. (Yosef A. ben-Jochannan, Africa: Mother of Western Civilization)
Over the course of time, due to the prosperity of the coastal North Africa, many different nations migrated there, acculturated and assimilated with the indigenous Berber/Moor population creating somewhat diverse population. Nonetheless, the bulk of the population consisted of the indigenous Black Moorish groups of the central Sahara more accurately represented by the Tuareg people of Libya, Morocco, Mauritania, Mali, Nigeria and Senegal. In his book The Destruction of Black Civilization, Chancellor Williams declared that Libya was once so nearly all-black that to be called a Libyan meant that one was Black. (See Chancellor Williams, The Destruction of Black Civilization p. 112). Herodotus (the Greek historian), writing about Libya in his Histories, (Book Four) stated as follows: One thing I can add about this country: so far as one knows, it is inhabited by four races, and four only, of which two are indigenous and two are not. The indigenous peoples are the Libyans and Ethiopians, the former occupying the northerly and the latter the more southerly parts; the immigrants are the Phoenicians and the Greeks.
The Berber clans that were most instrumental in the Moorish conquest of Spain (and parts of Portugal) of 711AD were the Nafza, Masmuda, Luwata, Hawwara, Zanata, Sanhadja and Zugwaha. They consisted primarily of Black Africans nations. A Muslim scholar describes the women of the Berber clan of the Sanhadja confederation in the following terms: "Their color is black, though some pale ones can be found among them."
NOW LETS LOOK AT DNA! You dont even understand DNA you're just finding crap on GOOGLE that only fits your agenda and giving me half truth and not the 100% truth!
The Berber people of North Africa originated from East Africa are the native people of North Africa are the Berbers, and the Berbers share the same DNA E1B1B with black Somali and Ethiopian and other black horn African people. E-M81 E1B1B1B known as the "Berber Marker" has Negroid/Sub-Saharan origin (Haplogroup E-M215 (Y DNA). Original Berbers are not white because the Berber marker migration id very recent around 5,000 years and or came from East African or Middle East and mutated in North Africa and there are Greek and Roman descriptions of those North African people. They live in North Africa in the Sahara desert, and their DNA mutations means that they have been adapting to the environment which means a darker skin tone.
Arabs share nothing with Berber DNA. Arabs DNA is j1 and j2 which is the same DNA for Kurds and the Turks and Persians and the people of Caucasus mountain and East Europe and South Europe. The original Berbers looked lie these modern day Berbers (Tuareg) of the Saharan desert in western Africa. Berbers are an indigenous language group which originated in East Africa. Linguistics, historic, and genetic evidence proves this! The original North African Berber were and are BLACK PEOPLE what you are currently seeing in the modern day Berbers located in North Africa are a mixed bi-racial group of Europeans and Arabs that colonized into northern Africa, however not all Berbers are mixed like this. Some still retained their skin color Berbers also reside in Mali, where they still have maintained their original skin tone. There are areas in Mauretania, Morocco, and Libya where they still have their original skin color, the Berbers are said to have originated from East Africa in Somali areas. The Berber language is AFRO-ASIATIC and not INDO-EUROPEAN they could never be "Aryan."
You just proved to me that you really dont know what your talking about which is why you never exposed any of my evidence to be false! This is not about to be debate this is about to be an embarrassment. The word Moor mean black including by the Webster dictionary, there were Arab Moors, tawny Moors and Egyptian Moors of a lighter hue, you must keep in mind that there interracial relationships voluntary and during the Moorish Law of Conquest. If you have Moorish Blood, then you are Moorish. Look at the movie True Romance. There are a lot of Italians, Spanish, Russians, Turks, Germans, and Jews with Moorish Blood. Some will say that they have black ancestors. Many of them don’t like it, but the truth expels the myth of a lie. The Normans Were Moors. They are the ones that built West Minister where they call England today. The Northern Italians has a percentage of Hannibal blood in them. The Moors conquered Spain The Latinos has a great percentage of Moorish blood even though many of them classify themselves "White" on the application when asked what is your ethnicity?
Moors were in the 16th-century Europe rarely people of distinction. Most of them were imported as slaves in Spain and Portugal. A small number of them were released over the years, but most were employed as servant to their masters. It was termed indentured servants. Only the Congo, which in the late 15th century was Christianized by the Portuguese, had a special status as a black kingdom of which the elite was educated in Portugal. Some Congolese made it as scholar, clerk, musician and jester quite far. Most remained employed in subordinate occupations. In the Netherlands, where the slave status was not recognized, Negroes usually came along as servants of Spanish and Portuguese traders. These were the moors that were converted to Christianity. Some were forced and some volunteered due to the conditions at the time. But why is it so important to show that so-called black or coloured people were part of the European nobility? Codfried's motivation is to show that Europe was never as 'white' as we have been taught. Black people were always in Europe, even among the European nobility. It goes for the same here in North America. Moors were always here.
The Moors are a group of North African population which conquered and ruled Spain and parts of Portugal for more than 700 beginning in 711 AD and ending in 1492 AD. It appears from research that even before this period going back into antiquity, this North African tribe has been synonymous with Iberia. The word Ibero-Maurisian culture used by archaeologists and historians to describe a group of pre-historic people that populated Iberia would underline this linkage. Not many people know that the Moors are Black Africans of Libyan, Moroccan, Nigerien, Nigerian and Senegalese origins. This is due to the deliberate misinformation produced by the Euro-American power establishment, which delights in obfuscating Africa's contribution to the history of mankind, preferring instead to appropriate to itself the glorious attainment of Africans throughout history. By the strategic control of vocabulary, semantics, nomenclature and grammatical acrobatics the academic establishment of Euro-America perpetrates its mendacity. The greatest sort of disempowerment is the loss of cultural and historical perspective by a people. A lack of knowledge of one's history implies an absence of knowledge about ones place in the universe. The erasure (or obfuscation) of African history and culture is the greatest tool employed by this Euro-American power structure to control Africans at home and in the diaspora. In this series on the Moors, we are taken on an excursion through history back to the Moorish kingdom of Spain, to ascertain who those Africans were, what they did and their subsequent significance in European history, even world history.
The original Berbers/Moors were Black Africans who spread from East Africa to Libya and Northwest Africa in the Pre-historic Ages. These people were the founders of various cultures which relics litter caves in the Sahara Desert. They have continuously occupied the central Sahara for more than 40,000 years. Their language Tamazight and its various dialects are recognized as a branch of the Afro-asiatic phylum of African languages. (Yosef A. ben-Jochannan, Africa: Mother of Western Civilization)
Over the course of time, due to the prosperity of the coastal North Africa, many different nations migrated there, acculturated and assimilated with the indigenous Berber/Moor population creating somewhat diverse population. Nonetheless, the bulk of the population consisted of the indigenous Black Moorish groups of the central Sahara more accurately represented by the Tuareg people of Libya, Morocco, Mauritania, Mali, Nigeria and Senegal. In his book The Destruction of Black Civilization, Chancellor Williams declared that Libya was once so nearly all-black that to be called a Libyan meant that one was Black. (See Chancellor Williams, The Destruction of Black Civilization p. 112). Herodotus (the Greek historian), writing about Libya in his Histories, (Book Four) stated as follows: One thing I can add about this country: so far as one knows, it is inhabited by four races, and four only, of which two are indigenous and two are not. The indigenous peoples are the Libyans and Ethiopians, the former occupying the northerly and the latter the more southerly parts; the immigrants are the Phoenicians and the Greeks.
*Part was introduced during the Moorish occupation. A Muslim scholar describes the women of the Berber clan of the Sanhadja confederation in the following terms: "Their color is black, though some pale ones can be found among them."
Actually it is you who misses the mark in my last post the evidence is self evident I understand the current science and it supports my position clearly it is evident by reading your post that you are the one that has done a lot of googling in the last two days. The problem is you don't know how to discern conjecture from science and you do not know how to interpret genetic studies.
Let me break it down to you real simple this is fact evidence that is verifiable and can be duplicated by science.
PLOS Genetics: Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations
"the proposed migration of sub-Saharans to southern Morocco at about 1,200 years ago coincides with the rise of the Ghana Empire, involved in the trans-Saharan slave trading, and the “Great Berber Uprising” which established Berber kingdoms throughout Morocco."
Another fact the populations of Portugal and Spain do not have Y-DNA(direct paternal lineages with origins in sub-Saharan Africa)
You cannot dispute those two facts!
Whereas your posts are based on opinion.
1. There are many definitions to the word Moor the Webster dictionary definition apparently suits your current needs.
2.Your statement of "if you have Moorish blood than you are Moorish" is complete nonsense I will use myself as an example 5% of my autosomal DNA comes from the Berbers of north Africa. My ancestry is Portuguese. Everyone in my family according to FTDNA's myOrigins test carries between 5%-6% north African and every Portuguese person who has taken the test whose results I have seen carries between 4%-7% north African. According to your assertion all of these people are Moors that smacks of the one drop rule. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule
Also Moroccans carry much more DNA with origins in the Iberian peninsula than Iberians carry DNA with origins in north Africa. Does that make Moroccans Iberian/Europeans?
3. North African DNA in Portugal and Spain wasn't all introduced by the Moors.
*Part of it was introduced into the Iberian peninsula during the neolithic migration from the middle east. A route was taken across north Africa then into the Iberian peninsula along the way Berber people were absorbed.
*Also after the Christians regained control the vast majority of the Muslims were enslaved in Portugal and eventually absorbed into the population.
Regarding your assertion that some southern Europeans are bothered having a small amount of sub-Saharan DNA that doesn't bother me at all, however the vast majority is the result of the west African slave trade and is all from women. I have been doing some research where that sub-Saharan African ancestry in my family members comes from, some have come up 1%-2% per FTDNA's myOrigins test. Initially I thought it was from the up Guinea-Bissau area and Cameroon but the mtDNA(direct maternal lineages and history are pointing to Ghana(elmina castle) not the Moors. The whole one drop rule was invented in the US and is not longer in use. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elmina_Castle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule
You define the Moors as sub-Saharan Africans such as Nigerians, however there isn't any evidence those were the same people that were in Al-Andalus the DNA of the current population in Portugal and Spain doesn't support your argument.
The most frequent paternal lineage in Morocco is E-M81 it arose in north Africa approx. 5,000-6,000 YBP In addition autsosomal dna clearly shows that north African Berbers diverged from Europeans/Middle Easterners >12,000 YBP not from Ethiopians. It is clear that Berbers are the result of back migration into Africa.
Chancellor Williams account of who the Libyans were isn't supported by current science he did the best he could. I have my own copy of his book.
NOW LETS LOOK AT DNA! You dont even understand DNA you're just finding crap on GOOGLE that only fits your agenda and giving me half truth and not the 100% truth!
The Berber people of North Africa originated from East Africa are the native people of North Africa are the Berbers, and the Berbers share the same DNA E1B1B with black Somali and Ethiopian and other black horn African people. E-M81 E1B1B1B known as the "Berber Marker" has Negroid/Sub-Saharan origin (Haplogroup E-M215 (Y DNA). Original Berbers are not white because the Berber marker migration id very recent around 5,000 years and or came from East African or Middle East and mutated in North Africa and there are Greek and Roman descriptions of those North African people. They live in North Africa in the Sahara desert, and their DNA mutations means that they have been adapting to the environment which means a darker skin tone.
Arabs share nothing with Berber DNA. Arabs DNA is j1 and j2 which is the same DNA for Kurds and the Turks and Persians and the people of Caucasus mountain and East Europe and South Europe. The original Berbers looked lie these modern day Berbers (Tuareg) of the Saharan desert in western Africa. Berbers are an indigenous language group which originated in East Africa. Linguistics, historic, and genetic evidence proves this! The original North African Berber were and are BLACK PEOPLE what you are currently seeing in the modern day Berbers located in North Africa are a mixed bi-racial group of Europeans and Arabs that colonized into northern Africa, however not all Berbers are mixed like this. Some still retained their skin color Berbers also reside in Mali, where they still have maintained their original skin tone. There are areas in Mauretania, Morocco, and Libya where they still have their original skin color, the Berbers are said to have originated from East Africa in Somali areas. The Berber language is AFRO-ASIATIC and not INDO-EUROPEAN they could never be "Aryan."
1. You clearly do not understand DNA E-M215 represents one man from which the other lineages diverged from. E-M81 arose in North Africa not sub-Saharan Africa(Negroid). Based on your erroneous logic everyone on the planet is Negroid/sub-Saharan due to Y Adam being haplogroup A. LoL.
2. The Arabs provided the culture/religion I made no reference to them providing much DNA to North Africa.
3. Sure you were there and can tell us without doubt for sure that the original Berbers looked like Tuareg. The current science doesn't support your view in fact it refutes it. Read the study I posted I suspect you do not understand it, but your ego won't admit that. Your last few sentences are babble not worth responding to.
Actually it is you who misses the mark in my last post the evidence is self evident I understand the current science and it supports my position clearly it is evident by reading your post that you are the one that has done a lot of googling in the last two days. The problem is you don't know how to discern conjecture from science and you do not know how to interpret genetic studies.
Let me break it down to you real simple this is fact evidence that is verifiable and can be duplicated by science.
PLOS Genetics: Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations
"the proposed migration of sub-Saharans to southern Morocco at about 1,200 years ago coincides with the rise of the Ghana Empire, involved in the trans-Saharan slave trading, and the “Great Berber Uprising” which established Berber kingdoms throughout Morocco."
Another fact the populations of Portugal and Spain do not have Y-DNA(direct paternal lineages with origins in sub-Saharan Africa)
You cannot dispute those two facts!
Whereas your posts are based on opinion.
1. There are many definitions to the word Moor the Webster dictionary definition apparently suits your current needs.
2.Your statement of "if you have Moorish blood than you are Moorish" is complete nonsense I will use myself as an example 5% of my autosomal DNA comes from the Berbers of north Africa. My ancestry is Portuguese. Everyone in my family according to FTDNA's myOrigins test carries between 5%-6% north African and every Portuguese person who has taken the test whose results I have seen carries between 4%-7% north African. According to your assertion all of these people are Moors that smacks of the one drop rule. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule
Also Moroccans carry much more DNA with origins in the Iberian peninsula than Iberians carry DNA with origins in north Africa. Does that make Moroccans Iberian/Europeans?
3. North African DNA in Portugal and Spain wasn't all introduced by the Moors.
*Part of it was introduced into the Iberian peninsula during the neolithic migration from the middle east. A route was taken across north Africa then into the Iberian peninsula along the way Berber people were absorbed.
*Also after the Christians regained control the vast majority of the Muslims were enslaved in Portugal and eventually absorbed into the population.
Regarding your assertion that some southern Europeans are bothered having a small amount of sub-Saharan DNA that doesn't bother me at all, however the vast majority is the result of the west African slave trade and is all from women. I have been doing some research where that sub-Saharan African ancestry in my family members comes from, some have come up 1%-2% per FTDNA's myOrigins test. Initially I thought it was from the up Guinea-Bissau area and Cameroon but the mtDNA(direct maternal lineages and history are pointing to Ghana(elmina castle) not the Moors. The whole one drop rule was invented in the US and is not longer in use. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elmina_Castle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule
You define the Moors as sub-Saharan Africans such as Nigerians, however there isn't any evidence those were the same people that were in Al-Andalus the DNA of the current population in Portugal and Spain doesn't support your argument.
The most frequent paternal lineage in Morocco is E-M81 it arose in north Africa approx. 5,000-6,000 YBP In addition autsosomal dna clearly shows that north African Berbers diverged from Europeans/Middle Easterners >12,000 YBP not from Ethiopians. It is clear that Berbers are the result of back migration into Africa.
Chancellor Williams account of who the Libyans were isn't supported by current science he did the best he could. I have my own copy of his book.
This is going to be easier than I thought. I didn't GOOGLE anything, my internet was off which is why I didn't respond when you wanted me to I guess! I know things from years of research, my brother you're the one who keeps going to wikipedia to try to discredit my official information. The term "MOOR" became interchangeable with "BLACK" because it was the same exact thing. When the slave trade started they objectified black/Moorish people so they would use the term interchangeably and started to call Moors "Black people" and even if you look at old documents (and we have those documents) they even had slave ships called "BLACKAMOOR" if you look at the slave records. I'm from Virginia therefore I have a lot of Virginian history (Virginia is an historic state), but in Virginia there was a very popular boxing during the early 1800s who name was Tom Molineaux and his nickname was "THE MOOR." Moor means black. My statement is not based on opinions my statement is based on FACTS! That you cant argue with which is why you keep bouncing around the point and not arguing my statement directly.
This is going to be easier than I thought. I didn't GOOGLE anything, my internet was off which is why I didn't respond when you wanted me to I guess! I know things from years of research, my brother you're the one who keeps going to wikipedia to try to discredit my official information. The term "MOOR" became interchangeable with "BLACK" because it was the same exact thing. When the slave trade started they objectified black/Moorish people so they would use the term interchangeably and started to call Moors "Black people" and even if you look at old documents (and we have those documents) they even had slave ships called "BLACKAMOOR" if you look at the slave records. I'm from Virginia therefore I have a lot of Virginian history (Virginia is an historic state), but in Virginia there was a very popular boxing during the early 1800s who name was Tom Molineaux and his nickname was "THE MOOR." Moor means black. My statement is not based on opinions my statement is based on FACTS! That you cant argue with which is why you keep bouncing around the point and not arguing my statement directly.
You define the term Moor as black that has been addressed on this thread already other posters have addressed that issue quite well there is no need to rehash that discussion. Read the entire thread that has been addressed.
I have very little interest in the Tuareg they aren't the "Moors" that were present in the Iberian peninsula, I have posted many times academic genetic studies clearly show they weren't.
I have some knowledge about how genetics work and I'm not ignorant which you have been implying. That reveals some insecurity on your part.
Wikipedia isn't where I gather information from however it is really handy, it breaks down things really simple I suspect some people reading these posts don't have an in depth knowledge on this topic and would be bored with scholarly sources. I can backup everything I post.
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