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It is remarkable what a confused cluster**** the actual governing apparatus was, beyond the whole kill-anyone-who-expresses-disagreement thing (an area in which they did show some serious skills).
No wonder Hitler believed in the triumph of the will - he obviously wasn't sold on the efficacy of the nuts & bolts machinery of the Nazi state.
there is so much more to it than what you claim that it would be an entire study in itself to get the facts right.
Because just last week I read in my Legion newspaper about an American WWII vet from my home state who stated the Americans had to use passwords because German soldiers wearing dead US GI uniforms would try to enter US front line camps and then start attacks.
I don't believe that statement is based on any facts. Compare what the German soldiers did with what the Soviet soldiers did is and you will see that the Germans were almost saints compared to the Soviets. The Soviet army was a rapist, plundering army. Where Hitler made rape by his troops a crime punishable by death the Soviet leadership encouraged Soviet soldiers to rape and plunder. The raping of the Soviet soldiers is well know to people who study history. Of course that is hardly mentioned in history books due to the fact that the Soviets were our allies that we were supplying and therefore it makes us complicit in their crimes. Also don't forget that before Hitler was elected to office in 1933 the Soviet government had killed millions of innocent people. Again, that is never talked about due to the same reasons as stated above.
One could endlessly debate who was more evil, Hitler or Stalin and both have the blood of millions of innocents on their hands. The crimes of one do not forgive the crimes of the other.
As for the soldiers themselves, the Soviet army certainly made the Germans pay for the 4 years of deprivation that they unleashed on the Soviet Union. Yes, the Soviet soldiers were often brutal but it was in reprisal for the absolute industrialized horror that the Germans unleashed. I don't condone what they did (and the Soviet Army had explicit orders against rape and looting, though it was only enforced after the units started to lose cohesiveness and needed to be regrouped) but I understand why the Soviets did it and...make no mistake...the Germans did it first.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickerman
The greatest plunder in the history of the world was the allied plundering of Germany. We even kidnapped their rocket scientists and brought them back at gunpoint. What we didn't steal we destroyed and what we didn't destroy we stole. You think I am kidding. We destroyed most cities and towns in Germany. I talked to a women riding a horse once and she said that the breed of horse she was riding was taken out of Germany after WW2. What didn't we steal from them? We stole all their tools and even went so far as to destroy the foundations of their factories with jackhammers. You talk about stealing art how about stealing everything in a whole country. An old women from Normandy was interviewed and she said when the allies came to their village they ordered everyone out of their houses and said they had to search for German soldiers. What they really did is went in and stole everything that they could get their hands on.
I'm really not sure what you're rambling about here. Yes, the allies enforced a tough peace on the nation that had started two global wars in the span of 30 years. While Germany was initially reduced, the allies also took great pains to build it back up and lay the foundation for what is today one of the most powerful nations in Europe. I suggest that you speak to some actual Germans instead of repeating the faux outrage over the peace that followed WW2.
I speak fluent German, have many friends there, have studied in German schools and have traveled the country extensively. I have never met a SINGLE German person that believes that the western allies "plundered" Germany.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickerman
I don't envy that friend of yours who shot those great SS soldiers'
I suppose he saw the emaciated bodies in those camps and it set him off. The reason they were emaciated was because the allies cut off all rail and road links into the camps and the Germans couldn't get food in. They(the Germans) tried to get food into those camps but the allies prevented them from succeeding. I guess your friend shot the wrong bastards.
Incidentally those people with emaciated bodies didn't die because of starvation but died because the results of food not being available meant that their resistance to disease went down and those people actually died of typhus. If they would have died of starvation their stomachs and tendons would have been swollen and as you can see in the pictures of those bodies that isn't the case.
Those "great" SS soldiers deserved a bullet in the back of the head for their barbarity.
I know we aren't supposed to be debating Holocaust denial per the mod, but your BS is off the charts. Your claims have been often repeated and completely and thoroughly debunked. It is amazing that you would continue to parrot such lies. It takes a special kind of stupid to be a Holocaust denier.
It was virtually impossible for the allies to cut off all road and rail links feeding the German war machine, why do you think it was possible for them to cut off all such links to the literally thousands of camps? The Germans couldn't get food in, but they managed to ship tens of thousands of prisoners via rail between the camps and continue the wholesale slaughter even as the allies closed in? They couldn't find a way to drive food to the camps, yet forced thousands of prisoners to march out of the camps as the allies closed in? Finally, the allies had considered bombing the rail links to help cut the flow of prisoners into the camps, but had determined that any damage to the rails would be rapidly repaired making the effort not worthwhile versus continuing the attack the military infrastructure.
The people who died in those camps died at the hands of the Germans who put them there, period.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickerman
there is so much more to it than what you claim that it would be an entire study in itself to get the facts right.
The entire Third Reich was run like an organized crime syndicate, not a country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David A Stone
Really ?
Because just last week I read in my Legion newspaper about an American WWII vet from my home state who stated the Americans had to use passwords because German soldiers wearing dead US GI uniforms would try to enter US front line camps and then start attacks.
Evidently they never received that memo !
The only organized usage of such a tactic (AFAIK) was during the Battle of the Bulge in an action known as Operation Greif. This was a Waffen-SS commando operation led by Otto Skorzeny with various goals. The wiki page provides a nice overview if you want more information:
However, it is important to point out that there was several times that the allies employed the same trick against the Germans and Italians.
During the landings at Salerno, an American "ranger" group from 636th Tank Destroyer Batallion moved inland and found itself cut off. After a night fending off some Germans in the area, they put on the German uniforms and weapons and tried to make their way back to allied lines. They ended up supporting some US infantry by attacking a German position from the flank/rear.
The British used German/Italian speaking members of the "Jew Company" dressed in Italian uniforms of the Catanzaro division to sneak into Bardia. The tactic was repeated in Tobruk as the Jew members dressed as Germans and escorted allied prisoners into Tobruk. The unit met with partial success. The tactic was tried again at Keren, but the entire unit was discovered and executed.
In February 1945 a task force from the 83rd infantry painted their tanks with German crosses and numbers. The infantry then donned German helmets and overcoats. They were able to move through the German lines and almost captured the bridge over the Rhine at Oberkassel before being discovered and the bridge blown.
One could endlessly debate who was more evil, Hitler or Stalin and both have the blood of millions of innocents on their hands. The crimes of one do not forgive the crimes of the other.
As for the soldiers themselves, the Soviet army certainly made the Germans pay for the 4 years of deprivation that they unleashed on the Soviet Union. Yes, the Soviet soldiers were often brutal but it was in reprisal for the absolute industrialized horror that the Germans unleashed. I don't condone what they did (and the Soviet Army had explicit orders against rape and looting, though it was only enforced after the units started to lose cohesiveness and needed to be regrouped) but I understand why the Soviets did it and...make no mistake...the Germans did it first.
I'm really not sure what you're rambling about here. Yes, the allies enforced a tough peace on the nation that had started two global wars in the span of 30 years. While Germany was initially reduced, the allies also took great pains to build it back up and lay the foundation for what is today one of the most powerful nations in Europe. I suggest that you speak to some actual Germans instead of repeating the faux outrage over the peace that followed WW2.
I speak fluent German, have many friends there, have studied in German schools and have traveled the country extensively. I have never met a SINGLE German person that believes that the western allies "plundered" Germany.
Those "great" SS soldiers deserved a bullet in the back of the head for their barbarity.
I know we aren't supposed to be debating Holocaust denial per the mod, but your BS is off the charts. Your claims have been often repeated and completely and thoroughly debunked. It is amazing that you would continue to parrot such lies. It takes a special kind of stupid to be a Holocaust denier.
It was virtually impossible for the allies to cut off all road and rail links feeding the German war machine, why do you think it was possible for them to cut off all such links to the literally thousands of camps? The Germans couldn't get food in, but they managed to ship tens of thousands of prisoners via rail between the camps and continue the wholesale slaughter even as the allies closed in? They couldn't find a way to drive food to the camps, yet forced thousands of prisoners to march out of the camps as the allies closed in? Finally, the allies had considered bombing the rail links to help cut the flow of prisoners into the camps, but had determined that any damage to the rails would be rapidly repaired making the effort not worthwhile versus continuing the attack the military infrastructure.
The people who died in those camps died at the hands of the Germans who put them there, period.
The entire Third Reich was run like an organized crime syndicate, not a country.
The only organized usage of such a tactic (AFAIK) was during the Battle of the Bulge in an action known as Operation Greif. This was a Waffen-SS commando operation led by Otto Skorzeny with various goals. The wiki page provides a nice overview if you want more information:
However, it is important to point out that there was several times that the allies employed the same trick against the Germans and Italians.
During the landings at Salerno, an American "ranger" group from 636th Tank Destroyer Batallion moved inland and found itself cut off. After a night fending off some Germans in the area, they put on the German uniforms and weapons and tried to make their way back to allied lines. They ended up supporting some US infantry by attacking a German position from the flank/rear.
The British used German/Italian speaking members of the "Jew Company" dressed in Italian uniforms of the Catanzaro division to sneak into Bardia. The tactic was repeated in Tobruk as the Jew members dressed as Germans and escorted allied prisoners into Tobruk. The unit met with partial success. The tactic was tried again at Keren, but the entire unit was discovered and executed.
In February 1945 a task force from the 83rd infantry painted their tanks with German crosses and numbers. The infantry then donned German helmets and overcoats. They were able to move through the German lines and almost captured the bridge over the Rhine at Oberkassel before being discovered and the bridge blown.
I am not even going to bother to respond to this post since it is so full of lies and baloney it isn't worth the time.
Codes of conduct and "10 Commandments", etc. have become relics in the age of industrial warfare when killing is usually done without even seeing the enemy.
Maybe 1870 was the last instance when a sovereign could command his soldiers to observe rules of engagement and conduct even as they were looking death in the face.
King Wilhelm addressed his troop upon entering France, "Soldiers - The pursuit of the enemy, forced back after bloody fighting, has already carried a great part of our army over the frontier. Many corps will enter upon the French soil today and tomorrow. I expect that the self-discipline with which you have heretofore distinguished yourselves, will be also especially maintained in the enemy's territory. We carry on no war against the peaceable inhabitants of the land; it is, on the contrary, the duty of every honest soldier, to protect private property, and not to allow the good reputation of our army to be marred by even one example of lawlessness. I depend up the excellent feeling which possesses the army, but also up the vigilance and rigor of all commanders."
Such exhortations sound archaic to contemporary ears. But at the time they were taken seriously and obeyed. It's not a "10 Commandments", but everyone knew exactly what it meant.
I am not even going to bother to respond to this post since it is so full of lies and baloney it isn't worth the time.
That brings back memories. Kind of like the way you never faced up to my pointing out that the SS represented only a small portion of the German forces invading Poland and then France, thus proving that you knew nearly nothing about the orders of battle in either conflict, thus undermining all your pro-Nazi gushing as nothing more than Rahowa-speak. You could not refute the facts, didn't know the truth, and chose not to display intellectual honesty by admitting that.
In the meantime, you have written a lot of fiction. It's still fiction. You may occasionally, by accident, get a fact right, but your saying a thing is demonstrated more likely to correlate said statement with fiction than truth. Repeating fiction over and over will not confer truthfulness upon that fiction.
Given this approach, your viewpoints are of value to the History forum only to undermine Holocaust denial and other pro-Nazi revisionism. If this is the credibility level of those outlooks, no real worry about otherwise sensible people wandering astray and falling for them.
that is absolutely ridiculous and a terribly invalid comparison. seriously the rape of women and children, who had no combat role outside of medical, is okay to you? You just told us you support warcrimes and rape.
A real class act here, this Troyfan is.
Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind. Russian soldiers knew how the Germans treated their compatriots when things were going good. What did the Germans think would happen if the worm turned? Let bygones be bygones? Forgive and forget?
The Germans thought the Slavic races were vermin and treated them accordingly. Look anywhere in history and you will see that what the Germans got is the same as that any other maruading invader got: revenge.
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