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Yea, usually the same people who also perpetuated genocide on the Indians and enslaved blacks.
That's a pretty loose definition of genocide there Moth, we certainly conquered the Indians and bent them to our will but we never attempted to wipe them out.
That's a pretty loose definition of genocide there Moth, we certainly conquered the Indians and bent them to our will but we never attempted to wipe them out.
I think you have gotten the posts confused here. I have never made a moral judgment about us dropping the bomb. If you go back through my posts my arguments are not about dropping not the bomb they are about the strategy and the reasons for doing so. You'll see that that is the focus of the debates I have participated in. I am totally uninterested in debating emotions of any kind including crap like patriotism and worse nationalism. I really don't give a tinker's damn about morality. It's war. War itself is immoral according to western belief so by consequence anything that happens in war can be called "immoral". However my only interest in historical warfare are the tactics and the strategies used.
My point above is simply that people will denigrate others for their crimes but will not recognize their own. They will also exaggerate the deeds of others. People simply believe what they are told. Truth is secondary.
I already stated my view comes not from patriotism or nationalism, but from a reasoned and sobered look at the context, timeline and chain of events.
Denigrating Japan for their crimes does not imply an absolution for anybody elses' crimes. All nations are imperfect entities and have done something horrid in their lifetime.
Not dropping the two bombs when we did would just have dragged the war on longer and the loss of aditional American lives. No doubt that plans were in the works for some kind of invasion if the need where to come to a head. But, we had already bombed many of their factories and many replacement parts were in short supply via use of some wood in their Kamakazie airplanes as an example. Saw first hand damage done by our incendiary bombing to a factory full of lathes while on occupation. The war on a whole was winding down and lives were a priority so a quick solution was the answer. So you know the rest of the story. Been there and seen it. Steve
I guess this thread only proves that history is used to promote misguided nationalism.
Ahhh, you're just peeved because you got chased out of the Indies and your empire is gone. And cheap Chinese imports are killing the local wooden shoe business.
Originally Posted by Irishtom29What makes you believe I'm peeved? I'm perfectly happy not to be American.
My point is that even the communists and the Nazis used history to rationalise their own behaviour, just like America is doing now.
Well of course you're happy to be Dutch as well you should be. But don't pretend you won't call on us when your neighbor to the east starts banging the drum and goose-stepping again. And they will.
What does now have to do with it, we're discussing 1945? If what's going on now is your point you haven't made that clear and you're in the wrong place. Open another thread about what The United States is doing wrong now and you'll get much agreement from Americans. But not when discussing the end of the war with Japan, you're way off base there and besides, no Dutchmen were being killed by the Japanese anyway, it wasn't your fight, your fight with the Japanese was sunk off Java in 1942.
The United States is doing wrong now and you'll get much agreement from Americans.
I never mentioned the US in my original post, only history and misguided nationalism. I'm not proud of being Dutch either, I don't think in terms of nationalism at all; for me being proud to be Dutch is just making the same mistake as Americans being proud of being American.
In order to feel pride you have to ignore the mistakes.
Or at least justify them.
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I'm perfectly happy not to be American.
