Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Just a little alternative history "what if" question here.
Those of us who are familiar with Operation Overlord and the way the D-Day landings went down know that the landing at Omaha Beach came dangerously close to failing. Allied intelligence had gravely underestimated the strength of the German defenses there, and quite a lot of other things that could have gone either way actually went the wrong way as the landing unfolded. Omar Bradley actually considered abandoning the beach and redirecting his remaining forces to Utah, although I think in retrospect he never would have actually made that decision. But things were bad enough that he did actually consider it, at least for a time.
But let's say the Omaha landing had failed, and the two divisions landing there had been thrown back and crushed on the beach. What do some of you think would have been the outcome? Both short term (on that particular day) and long term (on the Normandy invasion overall). What scenarios do you think might have played out?
Would the Germans have shifted some of their defenses to Utah Beach - enough to make a difference in that landing? Had we lost Omaha, would a 30 or 40 mile gap in the beachhead between Utah on the west and Gold, Sword, and Juno on the east have prevented the Allies from reinforcing and advancing from their initial position over those critical first few days? Would the delay been enough for Rommel to bring more reserve forces to bear on the other beaches, in time to make any significant difference? The British, French, and Canadian beaches would probably have been relatively unaffected, but if the German forces that were defeated at Omaha had been freed to launch a counterattack on the left flank at Utah, could that landing have been defeated as well?
What are your thoughts on how this might have played out differently?
Eisenhower probably would have sacrificed the American beachhead and reinforced the British beachhead. In the end if the allies did not take chances and fought conservatively from that moment on then the Soviets may have had all of Germany for the Cold War and there still might be a Soviet bloc
I think Omaha being a near disaster has been excessively hyped by writers seeking something to write about. Only a few sectors of a very wide beach landing area were actually severely affected by German counter defensive measures.
In any case, the issue was Allied vs. German reinforcment rates. The Germans had very few quality forces west of GJS and the Allies would have continued landing at Utah and more swiftly moved to cut off the Contentin Peninsula, invest Cherbourg and capture Carentan as there would have been more weight behind the troops which historically were in place via Utah.
I agree that some postwar historians exaggerate the likelihood that Omaha could have failed. Even in spite of all that went wrong, American forces were still on the German side of the "Atlantic Wall" by lunchtime. The reason I ask the question is the fact that as late as 11:00 hours, Bradley was actually considering abandoning the beach. He didn't consider it very long, and obviously he made the correct decision, but I've often wondered over the years what it would have taken for him to make a different decision - and what the outcome would have been if he had.
I think the key point to consider is that it's difficult to imagine a scenario in which he would have made a different decision. In spite of all the things that went wrong with Omaha - it was defended by a much stronger force than we'd expected, powerful cross currents disrupted the landing plan and made it difficult for even small units to find each other and assemble on the beach, a high rate of casualties among unit commanders, poor fire support, and poor communications - the Germans were still running out of ammunition by mid-morning, and allied air power attacking every vehicle that moved effectively made it impossible for them to resupply and reinforce. I think a lot more things than that would have had to have gone wrong for Bradley to wave off and redirect the follow-on waves to Utah.
So yes, it's very unlikely that Omaha could have failed. As many casualties as we took, we could have easily taken a lot more and still overwhelmed the beach. As bloody as Omaha was, Bradley had too much in the pot to throw in his hand. I still like to wonder, though, what might have happened if he had.
Now that I've posted the thread, though, and spent some time going over the different scenarios in my head, I think the better question to have asked would have been "what would have had to happen differently for Overlord to have failed?" If Rommel had been given more latitude to organize the coastal defenses the way he wanted to, if someone would have woken Hitler up a few hours earlier... I suppose if you're going to have any kind of worthwhile discussion on the "what if", you should first have a conversation about the "how."
I thought it was near doom as well for many, many years based on reading the usual authors and only became wise to what happened a few years ago thanks to the Internet and folks who put up maps and detailed AAR from the participants and then it showed what actually occurred.
Well, given that the landings at Utah, Gold, Sword, and Juno beaches were successful, I'm thinking it wouldn't have meant a cancellation of the operation. The German fortifications on Omaha would have been taken from the rear.
I thought it was near doom as well for many, many years based on reading the usual authors and only became wise to what happened a few years ago thanks to the Internet and folks who put up maps and detailed AAR from the participants and then it showed what actually occurred.
I think a lot of the reason for that was because at the time, everyone (from the commanding officer of the US 1st Army, Omar Bradley, all the way down) thought the landing was a disaster. Bradley had no radio communication with senior commanders on the beach the entire morning; it wasn't until early afternoon that General Gerow (commanding officer of V Corps, leading the assault on Omaha) finally made radio contact to report that "troops appearing to be our own are visible on some of the blufftops." The beachmaster halted the landing of any more vehicles at 8:30 - there was no room on the beach, because the initial waves were still pinned down on the sand and (in some cases) not even out of the water yet. At this point, the Germans actually believed they'd already defeated the assault.
During most of the morning, the only direct communications Bradley had with anyone who could actually see what was happening were the reports from the pilots of the landing craft, as they came back to pick up more troops, and their information was not encouraging - they spoke of "disaster," "complete chaos", "slaughterhouse," etc. He said later -
Quote:
The whole of D-Day was for me a time of grave personal anxiety and frustration. I was stuck on the Augusta. Our communications with the forces assaulting Omaha Beach were thin-to-nonexistent. From the few radio messages that we overheard and the firsthand reports of observers in small craft reconnoitering close to shore, I gained the impression that our forces had suffered an irreversible catastrophe, that there was little hope we could force the beach. Privately, I considered evacuating the beach-head and directing the follow-up troops to Utah Beach or the British beaches. Chet Hansen recorded that I later remarked to Monty, "Someday I'll tell General Eisenhower just how close it was those first few hours." I agonized over the withdrawal decision, praying that our men could hang on.
Around the time that Bradley received the message from Gerow that American troops appeared to be getting to the top of the bluffs, he sent his chief of staff and (if I recall correctly) a senior naval officer in a small craft to get as close to the beach as possible and report back on what they could see. They returned and told him that they couldn't see much, but that small units and even individual soldiers appeared to have fought their way off the beach and up through some of the draws.
At this point, the Germans were still reporting to higher command that the assault had been successfully hurled back into the sea, but Bradley recognized that the momentum was now on his side and pressed the attack. Navy destroyers drove themselves up so close to the beach they risked running aground in order to engage the remaining German strongpoints with direct fire from their 5-inch guns, and by about 13:30 we had clearly breached the defenses - albeit in very small numbers and limited locations.
But for the first few hours, the general consensus by everyone involved was that the Omaha landings had failed. In my opinion, the biggest reason they didn't was because the troops from the first assault waves knew they had no choice - the only way off that beach was to fight their way through the defenses and get inland. I think that's one of the things that "Saving Private Ryan" captured very accurately - the chaos, the confusion, the desperation, the lack of leadership because of the very high casualties among the small unit commanders, and the way the surviving troops threw together scratch teams with whomever was nearby to do whatever they had to do fight their way off the beach. More than anything, I think it came down the individual initiative and the absolute refusal to quit.
In retrospect, there were some serious mistakes made in the planning of the assault, which - had they been done differently - might have made things less chaotic. For one thing, the initial assault waves were composed primarily of green troops, rather than seasoned veterans - the veterans were held back as reserves to exploit the openings that the first waves were expected to force. For many of the troops in the first assault waves, the minute they stepped off the boat was the first time they'd ever been shot at, and many of them responded - quite predictably - by panicking and freezing. This was true even of many of their commanders.
In addition, the way the boats were loaded had the lieutenants and captains tasked with commanding the platoons and companies at the fronts of the boats - which meant that the minute the ramp was dropped, they were the first ones mowed down by the machine gun fire, leaving their units led by sergeants or (in some cases) nobody at all. It wasn't until experience officers started coming ashore and assembling the men into cohesive units that the major breakouts were made.
I think you really need to look at this scenario from the German perspective and then their reaction would most likely impact the allied response.
Ther Germans specifically diverted reinforcements from Omaha since the reports were that they were fairing better than the other beaches. My scenario would be that the 915th Grenadier Regiment Kampfgruppe that was sent to oppose fake para-landings and ended up diverted to Gold was instead retained at Omaha. The Germans use the 915th to plug the draws where breakthroughs were achieved and D-Day ends with additional landings called off and scattered remnants on the beach trying to stay alive.
On D+1 the situation would be success at Gold, Juno, Sword and Utah. The landings would be broken as the Germans would still hold Omaha. The western flank of Gold beach would be threatened by the intact 352nd division (American success on D-Day historically prevented the 916th with elements of the 915th from flanking Gold).
The Germans would most likely continue to move reinforcements into the fight against the British and Canadian beaches. With no reinforcements available to strengthen the position on Omaha directly, the 352nd would most likley ABANDON the beaches and move towards the western flank of Gold, around Longues.
The result would be the need to clear Omaha to secure the western flank of Gold and allow forces from Utah to move on Cherbourg. The US could easily move forces into Utah and pivot them to move against Carentan and then Isigny, which would make Omaha untenable, instead of agaisnt Cherbourg. The British would provide the "anvil" holding on at Gold while their main forces continued to push towards Caen. Eventually they would realize that Omaha was "open" and could conduct another landing to relieve the British flank.
The overall situation is a major delay in the D-Day timetables, but similar results. In some ways the delay may even have worked in the allies favor. Not having Omaha means Mulberry A would not have been in place at Omaha to be destroyed by the storm on June 19th. The allies may have ended up with two intact Mulberry's instead of one.
Looking at the German situation, the best they could hope to do was fight a delaying action and contain as best as possible. They simply lacked the forces in the area to do anything else. A victory at Omaha would be worthless as there was no way for them to exploit it.
I agree that some postwar historians exaggerate the likelihood that Omaha could have failed. Even in spite of all that went wrong, American forces were still on the German side of the "Atlantic Wall" by lunchtime. The reason I ask the question is the fact that as late as 11:00 hours, Bradley was actually considering abandoning the beach. He didn't consider it very long, and obviously he made the correct decision, but I've often wondered over the years what it would have taken for him to make a different decision - and what the outcome would have been if he had.
I think the key point to consider is that it's difficult to imagine a scenario in which he would have made a different decision. In spite of all the things that went wrong with Omaha - it was defended by a much stronger force than we'd expected, powerful cross currents disrupted the landing plan and made it difficult for even small units to find each other and assemble on the beach, a high rate of casualties among unit commanders, poor fire support, and poor communications - the Germans were still running out of ammunition by mid-morning, and allied air power attacking every vehicle that moved effectively made it impossible for them to resupply and reinforce. I think a lot more things than that would have had to have gone wrong for Bradley to wave off and redirect the follow-on waves to Utah.
So yes, it's very unlikely that Omaha could have failed. As many casualties as we took, we could have easily taken a lot more and still overwhelmed the beach. As bloody as Omaha was, Bradley had too much in the pot to throw in his hand. I still like to wonder, though, what might have happened if he had.
Now that I've posted the thread, though, and spent some time going over the different scenarios in my head, I think the better question to have asked would have been "what would have had to happen differently for Overlord to have failed?" If Rommel had been given more latitude to organize the coastal defenses the way he wanted to, if someone would have woken Hitler up a few hours earlier... I suppose if you're going to have any kind of worthwhile discussion on the "what if", you should first have a conversation about the "how."
Agreed. Just many as if questions in the end the Germans end was coming sooner if not later. Actauly it could have end worse for them in Germany being fully occupied by Russians.Just anther eastern block country and looked like eastern Germany in 1990'sgermnay remember actually transferred a huge portion of its western air force which needed the Battle of Britain. This was like many such things a pure Hitler decision who wasn't a great military genius in the end. The war in Europe is full of Hitler shifting too soon against military advice failures.
I think Omaha being a near disaster has been excessively hyped by writers seeking something to write about. Only a few sectors of a very wide beach landing area were actually severely affected by German counter defensive measures.
In any case, the issue was Allied vs. German reinforcment rates. The Germans had very few quality forces west of GJS and the Allies would have continued landing at Utah and more swiftly moved to cut off the Contentin Peninsula, invest Cherbourg and capture Carentan as there would have been more weight behind the troops which historically were in place via Utah.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223
Well, given that the landings at Utah, Gold, Sword, and Juno beaches were successful, I'm thinking it wouldn't have meant a cancellation of the operation. The German fortifications on Omaha would have been taken from the rear.
Agreed! Given the clear establishment of Allied air superiority by D-Day and the ability to intensify offshore bombardment, Omaha would merely have been just a salient to be reduced.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
