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The SB-24 became a capable anti-ship aircraft later in the war. Regular B24s also used withs success, see 308th Bomb Group in the CBI. But of course, did not have to deal with IJN naval aviators at their peak.
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Perhaps we were fortunate to NOT know what was coming.
The Japanese navy was battle hardened on Dec 7th, ours wasn't. We must remember, we pretty much were getting our asses handed to us until Midway. I think an argument could be made that had we sent the fleet to confront the IJN, perhaps all those ships that we were able to save at Pearl would have been unsaveable at the bottom of the pacific.
It was after we had some seasoning and some newer planes that we turned the tides of war.
Britain would have done nothing because 1) they were not at war with Japan (yet), 2) Pearl Harbor was an American base and not a British one and 3) Britain was more concerned with protecting her own bases than American ones.
Britain had 11,000 dead and 40,000 captured in the Battle of Dunkirk (26 May–4 June 1940) which resulted in the allied evacuation.
The Battle of Britain (10 July – 31 October 1940) finished almost 13 months before Pearl Harbor. Britain had 544 aircrew killed and 1547 aircraft destroyed, roughly 90,000 civilian casualties, 40,000 of them fatal.
The Battle of France, was the successful German invasion of France and the Low Countries, beginning on 10 May 1940. France had 360,000 casualties.
The North African Campaign began on 10 June 1940 .
Pearl Harbor was a minimal loss of life in comparison. Britain and France were overjoyed to see the USA enter the war full bore.
Britain would have done nothing because 1) they were not at war with Japan (yet), 2) Pearl Harbor was an American base and not a British one and 3) Britain was more concerned with protecting her own bases than American ones.
All good reasons but more than that.
Britain probably would have done nothing because an attack would have brought an ally for them into the way.....which it did.
The Brits, at least back then, have been rather notorious for sacrificing lives to achieve their ends......particularly when the lives aren't theirs.
Perhaps we were fortunate to NOT know what was coming.
The Japanese navy was battle hardened on Dec 7th, ours wasn't. We must remember, we pretty much were getting our asses handed to us until Midway. I think an argument could be made that had we sent the fleet to confront the IJN, perhaps all those ships that we were able to save at Pearl would have been unsaveable at the bottom of the pacific.
It was after we had some seasoning and some newer planes that we turned the tides of war.
That is possible, but is it likely?
It is far easier to strike a ship from the air when it is stationary, its location is known in advance, and the defenders have been taken by surprise. If the US put a couple of battlegroups to sea, the Japanese would have had to first find them, organize a striking force against them, hope that when that force arrived the fleet was still near where it was last reported, hit ships which were in motion and not crowded together, and penetrate an anti aircraft/combat patrol defense which was ready for them.
Simultaneously, the Japanese striking force would have to be on the alert for a counter attack by the battlegroup carriers and the land based aircraft on Oahu. That would effect their decisions about when and where to strike and would require then to hold back a percentage of their fighters for defensive purposes.
Of the two choices, put to sea and fight, or be the victims of a complete surprise, I think that the first is the better.
Perhaps we were fortunate to NOT know what was coming.
The Japanese navy was battle hardened on Dec 7th, ours wasn't. We must remember, we pretty much were getting our asses handed to us until Midway. I think an argument could be made that had we sent the fleet to confront the IJN, perhaps all those ships that we were able to save at Pearl would have been unsaveable at the bottom of the pacific.
It was after we had some seasoning and some newer planes that we turned the tides of war.
I also think the USN would have lost a sea battle against the Japanese attack force. The US would have been vastly outnumbered in aircraft carriers by at least 3-1. Tactics developed in Wildcat squadrons to defeat the ZERO had not yet been invented. Japanese destroyer torpedo attacks tactics were superb from the outset of the war. Had the US been able to deploy submarines against the Japanese attack force, the unreliability of the US torpedoes would have come to the fore, while the Japanese torpedo bombers and destroyers had faster, bigger and more reliable torpedoes. Yes, the US force would have out-gunned the Japanese fleet in capital ships, but i don't believe any of the BB's on either side had radar at the time; however, the Japanese had far better optics and training. Moreover, I doubt that any of the BBs would have even gotten within firing range, after the Japanese dive bombers, torpedo bombers and destroyer torpedo attacks were finished.
I also think the USN would have lost a sea battle against the Japanese attack force. The US would have been vastly outnumbered in aircraft carriers by at least 3-1. Tactics developed in Wildcat squadrons to defeat the ZERO had not yet been invented. Japanese destroyer torpedo attacks tactics were superb from the outset of the war. Had the US been able to deploy submarines against the Japanese attack force, the unreliability of the US torpedoes would have come to the fore, while the Japanese torpedo bombers and destroyers had faster, bigger and more reliable torpedoes. Yes, the US force would have out-gunned the Japanese fleet in capital ships, but i don't believe any of the BB's on either side had radar at the time; however, the Japanese had far better optics and training. Moreover, I doubt that any of the BBs would have even gotten within firing range, after the Japanese dive bombers, torpedo bombers and destroyer torpedo attacks were finished.
I suspect you're right, though it's hard to say. The single biggest advantage that the Japanese had at Peal Harbor was the element of surprise, so if this had been lost (as it was at Midway, for example), things could have gone the other way. The two sides were at rough parity in aircraft. While Japan outnumbered the U.S. 6 to 2 in aircraft carriers (or 3 or 4, depending on the whereabouts of Saratoga and Yorktown), we outnumbered them 7 (or 8, if Pennsylvania could have been gotten out of dry dock quickly) to 2 in battleships at the point of contact. It's possible that the opposing air forces could have whittled each other down enough that a surface attack would have been feasible. In such a case, we would have seriously outgunned them. On the other hand, their two battleships (Hiei and Kirishima) were notably faster than ours, and also they had their swift destroyers with their very powerful torpedoes to throw into the mix. So who knows.
I suspect that the most likely outcome would have been a fight of attrition on both sides, with both sides coming away with serious losses. The difference is, we were better able to replace our losses than they were. Indeed, the 6 fleet carriers that Japan committed to Pearl Harbor represented their entire force of first-line fleet carriers. If we could have destroyed them in the waters off Oahu, the war would have basically been over right then and there . . . unless of course, they sunk our carriers and our battle fleet and shot down all our planes as well. Then we'd be almost defenseless if they had chosen to commit their other battleships (they had 8 other ones at the time) to shore bombardment. But then again, shore bombardment was against their doctrine. So maybe it wouldn't have mattered. Wow, so many alternative possibilities!
The US would have probably tried to execute something called Plan Orange which was a code for a war plan against Japan that had been studied and gamed by the Naval War College ever since the 1920s. The results called for sortieing the US Naval squadrons from the West Coast to Hawaii and challenging the IJN to a set piece battle in the mid-Pacific or the Philippine Sea . The fact that 8 battleships and 3 aircraft carriers were in Pearl Harbor prior to the Japanese attack was indicative of one of the early phases of Plan Orange. The next step would have been to sail this fleet for Plan Orange assumed the IJN would attack the Philippines first since it was closer to Japan and stood in the way of Japanese expansion in SE Asia. Plan Orange would have been a disaster on par with the French -British response to the German invasion of Poland in 1939 (which as to try to fight Germany in Belgium. Japan had technological superiority in naval aviation, 8 carriers and a better torpedo. The US Fleet would have shared the fate of the British Far Eastern Squadron which was sunk in the South China Sea. The US was lucky the 8 battleships were caught in Pearl Harbor and the 3 carriers were out to sea trying to find the IJP in the Mid Pacific. 6 of the 8 were refloated, patched up then sent back to the West coast for repairs and upgrades like radar. They returned to the fight. Only the USS Arizona and Oklahoma were so damaged that they couldn't be refloated. If this had happened in the mid Pacific all eight battleships and most if not all of the carriers would have been sunk in deep water with the loss of their full complements of men. Plan Orange represented old naval tactics and the Japanese knew about Plan Orange from friendly visits and training at our War College in the 1920s.
our leadership DID believe that Japan would eventually attack..hell they bargained on it and did everything short of dropping the first bomb to prompt it
I am at odd about whether or not FDR knew it would be pearl harbor, or when...
our leadership DID believe that Japan would eventually attack..hell they bargained on it and did everything short of dropping the first bomb to prompt it
I am at odd about whether or not FDR knew it would be pearl harbor, or when...
In fact, the record shows that FDR was in a somewhat conciliatory mood during the negotiations in Washington DC with the Japanese, just prior to Pearl Harbor. But Stimson and Knox would have none of it.
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