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I don't wish to come across as pretentious, but this isn't groundbreaking information you're giving us, it's widely known that England had a Norman ruling class for centuries. Your thread title is also misleading.
Aside from that, the situation was actually the same across much of Europe, including within France itself. French, along with Latin, was a prestige language spoken by the ruling classes of Europe. French peasants spoke their own local dialects, French wasn't spoken by the majority of French people until the the 19th century.
Yes the British Empire where the sun never set. But I'm not sure where the cutoff was, in terms of language. I actually was going to go in and self-correct myself that French was the language of business and aristocrats possibly into the early 20th century (pre-WW1).
I've read that the Treaty of Versailles being written in English as well as French was the symbolic big hammer blow to French prestige that signaled the decline of French as the language of international diplomacy. By the end of WWII, with the US emerging as the leading power, the process of French being superseded by English was more or less complete.
OP, you forgot about the Vikings! A large number of place names in Great Britain have place names, derived from Danish in the 9th and 11th centuries.
Yes—good point—
England was a confluence of different tribes once the Romans left
And it was a confluence of different tribes before the Romans showed up too—
Anyone watching the series about King Alfred and Utred??
And while Romans were in residence and ruling a large—but not all-inclusive—portion of England, their version of Latin was the language of government and merchants and upper class
And the leaders of the British tribes usually spoke Latin (even if they couldn’t read it) to deal with their rulers
Last edited by loves2read; 02-21-2019 at 09:21 AM..
Most Chaucer texts taught in school are in the original language with annotations. That's how it was taught to me. I don't think I've ever seen a translation of Chaucer.
Middle English just looks like English with the words spelled differently. It's readable.
This is English, not a foreign language.
It is a FORMER English mode—-
And the point you are missing I think is that reading it is not the way to experience that language at its best
Just like Beowulf is best HEARD—not read—because that is how it was created
It is an oral language where the rhythm and onomatopoeic feature of the words heighten the impact and connotations they carry...
Homer’s Odyssey and Iliad were originally oral versions for generations before they were written into what was probably an incomplete and adapted version
The Old Testament and New Testament carry some of those same aspects because of being translated into various languages often by people who allowed their own agendas to influence word choice...
Believe me—
High school students being presented with THAT passage would have no clue what its message was
Just like most rap lyrics are a foreign language to people who grew up in the 60s and especially any older generation
I am not saying that NO older music lovers can’t understand rap or find it a wasted music genre
Just that some people need rap lyrics translated to their comfort language
Just as most people would need Middle English translated
I am rewatching “The Wire” for the 6th or so time and the language of the young black drug dealers often has to be translated—both because of pronunciation variations and their use of slang...
English bears the history of conquest within its evolution...
Many languages if we were that familiar with them likely do the same
Most Chaucer texts taught in school are in the original language with annotations. That's how it was taught to me. I don't think I've ever seen a translation of Chaucer.
Middle English just looks like English with the words spelled differently. It's readable.
This is English, not a foreign language.
Translations of Chaucer into modern English are widely available, and some are intended as texts.
I honestly cannot imagine a contemporary public high school that included Canterbury Tales in its curriculum being able to successfully use a text in Middle English, unless it was in a track for above-average students, or a school with exceptional students overall.
Umble evolved from numble (after the French nomble), meaning 'deer's innards'. ... Since the sound "h" is dropped in many dialects, the phrase was rebracketed as "humble pie". While "umble" is now gone from the language, the phrase remains, carrying the fossilized word as an idiom.
But in reality—
“Eating humble pie” now is pretty much the same literally as eating “numble” pie was long ago
That dish being made from offal (deer innards) was for lower class diners—
Since nobility were the only ones allowed to actually hunt/kill deer it was not something the average person would be eating at all—unless they committed a crime
But kitchens of the landowners had to feed ALL the people who worked at the manor—and that could be large or small number depending on the “manor” size...
Some small estates probably still had to feed 30 people on a daily basis because everything was done by hand—and stable workers, maids, cooks, knights, paiges, the castle priest—
All were fed as part of their “keep” by their lord...
All parts of the deer or beef or rabbit or whatever protein item was being cooked were utilized to maximize the payout
Thus deer innards went to the people on the lower food tiers because it was considered peasant/lower class fare—
Thus eating humble pie—showed a person was getting less than the best and had their place in life confirmed by their food choices...
Just as being seated “below the salt” mean that a lower class servant or visitor often went w/o being able to add salt to a food dish—because salt was expensive (especially the better grades) and while cooks had access to salt and pepper those spices were used conservatively in dishes...and not freely available as they are now...
Translations of Chaucer into modern English are widely available, and some are intended as texts.
I honestly cannot imagine a contemporary public high school that included Canterbury Tales in its curriculum being able to successfully use a text in Middle English, unless it was in a track for above-average students, or a school with exceptional students overall.
I didn’t teach Senior English—which is where students usually get the English experience
But yes—there is usually a “translation” of the text in Modern English to go along with the Middle
And so many teachers just glossed over it because so many “average” students consider anything before yesterday irrelevant to their knowledge needs...
Same with American Literature which often starts with Native American myths and writings of English/Spanish explorers like Cabeza de Vaca or Cotton Mather the Puritan minister
Even the play “The Crucible” by Miller which is so relevant at any time since it was performed is a hard teach in most classes
That is why they opt for the movie as sort of a parallel text...
I don't wish to come across as pretentious, but this isn't groundbreaking information you're giving us, it's widely known that England had a Norman ruling class for centuries. Your thread title is also misleading.
Aside from that, the situation was actually the same across much of Europe, including within France itself. French, along with Latin, was a prestige language spoken by the ruling classes of Europe. French peasants spoke their own local dialects, French wasn't spoken by the majority of French people until the the 19th century.
Well just maybe others not as pretentious haha didnt know about this and it interests them.. and how many interesting posts do you post each day? I didnt claim it to be "groundbreaking" as you say but thought American readers might like to know more about our history.... thank you though for your high level of input....
Well just maybe others not as pretentious haha didnt know about this and it interests them.. and how many interesting posts do you post each day? I didnt claim it to be "groundbreaking" as you say but thought American readers might like to know more about our history.... thank you though for your high level of input....
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