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Interesting, and painful thread. Thanks, everyone, for their input.
I have SUCH ANGER against Nazi Germany, but am on the fence about young people who were forced by fear into the movement. This man was 19.
And I know both German people who endured the war, and English people who mostly were responsible for fighting the Nazis and in doing so lost virtually all their men, and Jews who were incarcerated.
Painful past. It's hard to blame this 95 year old man, for being swept up in this when he was 19.
Interesting, and painful thread. Thanks, everyone, for their input.
I have SUCH ANGER against Nazi Germany, but am on the fence about young people who were forced by fear into the movement. This man was 19.
And I know both German people who endured the war, and English people who mostly were responsible for fighting the Nazis and in doing so lost virtually all their men, and Jews who were incarcerated.
Painful past. It's hard to blame this 95 year old man, for being swept up in this when he was 19.
The issue at hand isn’t that he was forced or not to be a guard. I wouldn’t be surprised, especially at 19 at the end of the war, that he was forcibly conscripted, or fearful.
The issue is that the Holtzman Amendment of 1978 would make him inadmissible.
The issue at hand isn’t that he was forced or not to be a guard. I wouldn’t be surprised, especially at 19 at the end of the war, that he was forcibly conscripted, or fearful.
The issue is that the Holtzman Amendment of 1978 would make him inadmissible.
So rather than a 95 year old getting deported he’s lucky he wasn’t a 52 year old getting deported in 1978.
In November 2020, the Board of Immigration Appeals upheld a Memphis, Tennessee, Immigration Judge’s Feb. 28, 2020, decision that Berger was removable under the 1978 Holtzman Amendment to the Immigration and Nationality Act because his “willing service as an armed guard of prisoners at a concentration camp where persecution took place” constituted assistance in Nazi-sponsored persecution.
The fact he didn't request a transfer isn't necessarily the same as "willing service" which appears to be the major offense.
He was stationed as a camp guard. I'm sure the word had gotten around the war wasn't going well for Germany. I think it's unrealistic to fault him for wanting stay in the camp and his post as a guard.
On the other hand perhaps he told someone of atrocities he willing committed. However, my guess is if this were the case it would have come out at his trial.
I remember reading about this man when he was arrested. He was adamant he did nothing wrong and maybe he didn't. Maybe his options were to do what he was told, get sent the fighting or find himself swinging from the end of a rope.
There's nobody around to say one way or the other.... except him
Maybe the outcome of his trial would have been different had he not appeared so defiant after his arrest.
When someone has an opinion opposite of yours, it's 'virtue signaling'. But somehow, when you take your position you're not signaling any virtue.
It's only 'virtue signaling' when someone else does it... right?
Your phony puffery is certainly showing.
Again, the question of how far down the chain of command one can go has to realistically be asked, especially in light of how "Never Again" turned out to be a phony claim, from Cambodia to Bosnia.
Again, the question of how far down the chain of command one can go has to realistically be asked, especially in light of how "Never Again" turned out to be a phony claim, from Cambodia to Bosnia.
Well, realistically seen, given that at this point in time anyone at the age of 25 at the end of the war would be over a 100 years old, the only people left are pretty much the kids and lowest level foot soldiers. So it's either a question of going after these guys or just letting it go. It seems like the latter isn't an option for a lot of people.
The Japanese foot solider was not treated as sub-human by their officers. What they were treated with was strict discipline. The idea behind having fresh troops slaughter prisoners was to get over their fear/repulsive to kill. To de-humanize the enemy by putting them on par with livestock.
He didn't need orders to execute civilians and POWs, he was happy to commit atrocities as for him it became a normal and expected act.
That's not true. While there were certainly differences between the Japanese and US military. The recruit was basically the same. A young man who did what they were told.
You are incorrect in terms of Japanese treatment. I mean are you joking? The fact that Japanese troops were treated mercilessly and brutally is true and is not disputed by ANY historian or expert on the matter. No one disputes it (except you apparently). Discipline was certainly part of it, and there were other factors (the Japanese racism and doctrine of the time) that explain events like Nanking. But the major reason is explained in my post and below.
"One major reason that the IJA exhibited such brutality towards foreign civilians, prisoners of war, and soldiers stemmed from the fact that Japanese soldiers were treated equally harshly in training. Japanese recruits would be beaten, given unnecessarily strenuous duty tasks, insufficient food, and other violent or harsh disciplinary tactics, and so Japanese soldiers were simply reciprocating the behavior they had experienced themselves."
But again, the topic here is Germany. I would ignore your thread in order to stay on topic except that you are so very wrong.
Nazi hunters are making the point that no matter how old you are they will track you down. You will live your life looking over your shoulder. Your family will be ashamed they are related to you. Your friends and neighbors will be appalled. You will be deported and possibly stand trial and be put in prison.
Perhaps it is time, after 75 years, for Nazi Hunters to get a new cause. Especially in light of horrible things happening right now.
And even the best of causes, sadly, can get hijacked by charlatans and con-artists. I am reminded of the cottage industry devoted to hunting down Martin Bormann, claimed to be somewhere in South America, even after it became apparent that in fact he did die in Berlin in 1945. And while it was terrible that Josef Mengele escaped to Brazil, once it became apparent that he did in fact die in Brazil in 1979, the cottage industry kept up "looking for him" for some more years. And these causes were at times fraudulently soliciting donations from gullible but well meaning people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twinkletwinkle22
And the next time a government gives orders to kill people or march them through freezing countryside the soldiers will think about whether what they are doing is wrong and they can be held accountable. If I had family who died at the hands of the Nazis, no matter how old they were I would be glad to have this person deported. They do not deserve to live in the US.
And yet, in very recent years, from Cambodia to Bosnia and all throughout Africa, that didn't happen.
Last edited by NickB1967; 03-17-2021 at 07:58 AM..
I have no guilt about hunting down and imprisoning a Nazi regardless of his or her age.
Author Olga Lengyel, death camp survivor, describes in her book Five Chimneys, the method by which the Nazi murdered thousands of children after their ammo ran low towards the end of the war. The death camp Jews were forced to stand the children out in the snow, strip and douse them with water, and watch them freeze to death in the frigid cold.
This guy is a sub-human monster who now plays on our sympathies? He attempts to make us the evil ones for holding him accountable. Don't let him do that.
Millions of souls continue to cry for justice. Don't shed one tear for the monster.
Perhaps it is time, after 75 years, for Nazi Hunters to get a new cause. Especially in light of horrible things happening right now.
And even the best of causes, sadly, can get hijacked by charlatans and con-artists. I am reminded of the cottage industry devoted to hunting down Martin Bormann, claimed to be somewhere in South America, even after it became apparent that in fact he did die in Berlin in 1945. And while it was terrible that Josef Mengele escaped to Brazil, once it became apparent that he did in fact die in Brazil in 1979, the cottage industry kept up "looking for him" for some more years. And these causes were at times fraudulently soliciting donations from gullible but well meaning people.
And yet, in very recent years, from Cambodia to Bosnia and all throughout Africa, that didn't happen.
Perhaps the existence of safe places to emigrate, Israel, the US and other countries allowed Jews to set up a network to find these Nazis throughout the world. It takes money and many years of work to create this. There may be future networks to search for other genocide participants.
When genocides murder the educated and wealthy it is hard for poor, overworked survivors to mount a campaign for justice.
Why look at other countries? The slavery of the US has not been dealt with fully, we have not seen all the names named of those who participated and built their family fortunes on slavery. We are only beginning to remove statues of slave owners and actually realize the history we were taught did not include what we would call crimes today, rape, kidnapping, selling children away from their parents, murder, torture.
Why are you pointing to other countries and asking why aren't they being held responsible?
We have a lot to account for right here.
You are incorrect in terms of Japanese treatment. I mean are you joking? The fact that Japanese troops were treated mercilessly and brutally is true and is not disputed by ANY historian or expert on the matter. No one disputes it (except you apparently). Discipline was certainly part of it, and there were other factors (the Japanese racism and doctrine of the time) that explain events like Nanking. But the major reason is explained in my post and below.
"One major reason that the IJA exhibited such brutality towards foreign civilians, prisoners of war, and soldiers stemmed from the fact that Japanese soldiers were treated equally harshly in training. Japanese recruits would be beaten, given unnecessarily strenuous duty tasks, insufficient food, and other violent or harsh disciplinary tactics, and so Japanese soldiers were simply reciprocating the behavior they had experienced themselves."
But again, the topic here is Germany. I would ignore your thread in order to stay on topic except that you are so very wrong.
One major reason that the IJA exhibited such brutality towards foreign civilians, prisoners of war, and soldiers stemmed from the fact that Japanese soldiers were treated equally harshly in training. Japanese recruits would be beaten, given unnecessarily strenuous duty tasks, insufficient food, and other violent or harsh disciplinary tactics, and so Japanese soldiers were simply reciprocating the behavior they had experienced themselves.[52] Furthermore, recruits were told to always follow their orders, as if they were given by the Emperor himself.
Yes, the J-solider was treated to strict discipline but to suggest this is why a Chinese prisoner/civilian was tied to a post and deliberately slaughtered is ridiculous. Check out the book, On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society by Dave Grossman. Training to kill and then actually killing another person is not an easy act. At least not initially.
The Japanese officer demanded immediate obedience from the recruit and understood the most effective way for a fresh solider to get over killing was...to kill.
Butchering prisoners/civilians dehumanized the enemy. Put them on par with livestock and why atrocities such as what happened in Nanjing weren't unusual.
Last edited by john3232; 03-17-2021 at 09:50 AM..
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