Why Did Europeans Join the Waffen SS in WWII? (Spanish, France, Russians)

[Dd714]

Originally Posted by noetsi

Given that the term Ayran is poorly defined, Slavs were Caucasion and their language is part of the Indo-Ayran form I believe.

You would think - but Slavs were exempted from the nazi Aryan race boys club for some reason. This included Poles, Russians, Lithuanians, Serbians, etc. The only reason they didn't get the ovens (well, many did actually) is because Hitler just ran out of time.
Not sure why, it might be because their blood was considered too mixed with jews and gypsies and asians (although I watched a show a couple months back where Hitler had some strange fascination with Tibetian/Aryan race connections). Or because his definition of Aryan was limited to the germanic/nordic ancestory. Or because he associated Slavs with communists. Or that his theories and extermination desires complemented his wish for his countrymen to occupy the eventual depopulated lands to his east.
This takes us into a whole different topic on German race theories however.

[John Walmsley]

Armin D. Lehmann's book, Hitler's Last Courier, has an appendix table that lists the name of the Waffen SS units, the date founded and the nationality. It's interesting to note how the German-only restriction was relaxed as the war progressed.

Ethnic Germans of other countries were admitted in 1942 as were Scandinavians; Yugoslavs, Ukrainians and Latvians were added in 1943; Estonians, Hungarains, Italians Russians and Albanians units were added in 1944, and Flemish, Walloon, Dutch, and French units in 1945. Presumably many of these ethnic groups were already serving before their units were officially organized.

An SS Cadet unit called SS-Panzergrenadierdivision-Nibelungen, presumably composed of young boys, was added in 1945. I didn't see a reference to the Finnish troops, but they may have been included in the Scandinavian units.

[noetsi]

Indian (that is from the state of India) were added in 44 as well. By that time Himler was giving up on the Ayran requirement entirely although formally he decided they were honary Ayrans I think

[2cold]

Lithuanians and Latvians are not Slavs, they are Balts and as such were considered Aryan by the Nazis. The Nazis considered the Poles as East Baltic, a step above Slavs.

In actuality, Aryan is something that was dreamed up in the latter part of the 19th c, and strictly speaking encompasses European peoples of Indo-European descent. Taken a step further, the term was adapted to mean long headed, light haired, light eyed northern Europeans.
I was, at one time an anthropology major, also, my parents were born around 1920, in Lithuania. They never talked much about the war, but I did get answers once in a while.

[2cold]

Strictly speaking the Indians were also Aryan.

[noetsi]

Strictly speaking I dont think there really is such a thing as a Aryan. Obviously there is a language group called Indo-Aryan. And a subgroup of the human race called Caucasion. But the distinct, ethnic/racial concept of Ayrans is essentially made up.

Last time I looked anthropologists rejected the concept of distinct subgroups of humans. That is they argue there is only one human race, one unified genome. Unlike say the multiple species of various animals that are in fact genetically distinct (like different types of cats and dogs).

[other99]

Originally Posted by Dd714

You would think - but Slavs were exempted from the nazi Aryan race boys club for some reason. This included Poles, Russians, Lithuanians, Serbians, etc. The only reason they didn't get the ovens (well, many did actually) is because Hitler just ran out of time.
Not sure why, it might be because their blood was considered too mixed with jews and gypsies and asians (although I watched a show a couple months back where Hitler had some strange fascination with Tibetian/Aryan race connections). Or because his definition of Aryan was limited to the germanic/nordic ancestory. Or because he associated Slavs with communists. Or that his theories and extermination desires complemented his wish for his countrymen to occupy the eventual depopulated lands to his east.
This takes us into a whole different topic on German race theories however.

But even though the Nazis believed the slavs were on the lower racial scale compared to Aryans, they did kidnap slavic children of nordic appearance in Eastern Europe, and the kidnapped children were indotrinated that they were Aryans and many cases sent to Germany to be adopted to German families.

[TonyT]

Originally Posted by noetsi

TonyT did an excellent review of the issue; I would disagree with the following.

1) While its true that only the Heer could draft people in the army they were free to volunteer for the SS. Many in Germany did volunteer - others were effectively "volunteered" by various pressures.

Yes, German citizens were free to volunteer for the Waffen SS. However, the number of people that could do so was restricted to a set number per year. This cap was put in place by Hitler to appease the High Command, who were concerned that this armed wing of the SS would usurp their role as the “sole bearer of arms” for Germany. More importantly, service in the Waffen SS was not particularly appealing to the vast majority of Germans. The ideological bent of the organization was certainly a draw to many young men that had been politically indoctrinated in the Hitler Youth. But the average German youth who did not feel a strong allegiance to the Nazi Party, preferred to serve in the regular army, much as their fathers and grandfathers had before them. That is why the recruitment of foreign volunteers into the Waffen SS became so important to Himmler, because he simply couldn’t expand the force without them. As it is, regardless of recruitment efforts in and outside of Germany, during it’s entire existence, the total strength of the Waffen SS never exceeded 10 percent of that of the Wehrmacht.

2)Wiking was a divsion not of native Germans, but of Scandinavian volunteers, Danish, Norwegion, and Swedish primarily. So the Finns were attached to other non-Germans.

I am well aware of the make-up of the “Wiking” Division. However, that wasn’t the point. “Wiking” was commanded by German officers. And while the Finnish unit was attached to “Wiking”, they did not take orders from the German officers, but rather from Finnish officers. This was the first instance where such a situation was allowed, and it would serve as the blueprint for future legions made up of specific ethnic groups that would be commanded by their own officers, and not Germans.

3) Its not fair to argue that the Rexist party was Nazi. It was extremely nationalistic and Roman Catholic in a way that seperated it from the rest of Belgium society. But it did not endorse Nazi doctrine generally. While many followed Degrelle into the Nazi movement, many Rexist did not and indeed some actively opposed the Germans during the occupation of Belgium.

I did not state that the Rexist Party was Nazi. I referred to it as a “Nazi style” political organization, meaning only that it was fascist in bent, and had some of the trappings of the Nazi movement. While it’s true the Rexists did not endorse every Nazi ideal, they did adopt anti-Semitism as part of their teachings, and aligned themselves closely with Nazi Germany. The anti-clerical, anti-Semitic components of Nazism did cause some Rexists to abandon the movement after the German occupation, and even led some to join the resistance. But the majority of Rexists embraced the occupation and actively collaborated with the Germans until the very end.

If you want to get technical, absent the anti-Semitism, Rexism had the most in common with Franco’s Falange in Spain, Salazar’s “Estado Novo” in Portugal.

[2cold]

Strictly speaking I dont think there really is such a thing as a Aryan.

If we're talking about who's considered Aryan and who's not, then the Indians of the Indian subcontinent are Aryan. The whole Aryan race thing was made up, popular in its day, and discarded.
In the past, they believed that language and ethnicity were related, therefore, in their book, there was an Aryan or Indo-European race.
Around the same time, in the mid 1800's or so, there was another theory bandied about in some places in northern Europe of Nordicism. Anyway, they (the northern Europeans) believed they were superior to all other "races", and the word Aryan became linked with this belief.

In the 1800's northern Europeans generally felt superior to every one else. Of course, other peoples felt they were superior to everyone else too. The whole "we are the world" or 'we're all one village" would have been a load of guff to them. By the 1930's the Germans, or perhaps more correctly, the Nazis had taken this to a whole other level.

Always, if you're studying history, keep in mind that in their day, people kept other views of things that we do now. What we may see is wrong or foolish, they saw as right and true. History is more than dates, battles and exploration. Personally, I've found history more interesting than History. I could not care less about dates and battles, or History with a capital H. The small h - history is much more interesting.

[WIHS2006]

Indian (that is from the state of India) were added in 44 as well.

Correct, the Japanese also had the "Indian National Army" as well. The Japanese also had some sort of similar unit in the Philippines.