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I do not think it would have mattered in terms of expansion as per my point. Just because a nation has the ability to expand, conquer and govern other areas does not mean it will want to. As I said in the 15th century China had the ability to set up permanent bases in places like the Malay peninsula, but chose not to because they did not think it was worth their time.
You cannot possibly expect that altering 17th Century China by turning it into an advanced industrial society while the remainder of the planet stayed in the musket age, would have resulted in no other changes to that society. Of course their culture and mentalities would be radically altered, they would have had to have been so in order for them to get industrialized in that era.
Whatever the choices made by the actual Chinese culture in the 17th Century were, a completely different set of people would be doing the choosing in this advanced industrial society. Completely different values would prevail. What didn't seem worthwhile to the folks who were alive at that time, may well indeed be deemed highly desirable by the replacement people in our imaginary scenario.
You cannot alter one thing and rely on all else remaining constant.
Mussolini's Italy and Franco's Spain would have had censoring filters on the Internet to block any material in conflict with the regime's ideologies, much like China has right now - given that Latin Fascism wasn't as concerned with propagating its ideology to the world like Communism or Nazism but more concerned with just limiting thought and speech that directly contradicted the regime's official ideology.
Apartheid era South Africa would not have had the Internet. They didn't have TV until deep into the '70s because they were paranoid about outside ideas coming in, and particularly in limiting the population's access to media reflecting the social changes in America and Britain.
I HATE to imagine what Nazi Germany would've done with the Internet....
You cannot possibly expect that altering 17th Century China by turning it into an advanced industrial society while the remainder of the planet stayed in the musket age, would have resulted in no other changes to that society. Of course their culture and mentalities would be radically altered, they would have had to have been so in order for them to get industrialized in that era.
Whatever the choices made by the actual Chinese culture in the 17th Century were, a completely different set of people would be doing the choosing in this advanced industrial society. Completely different values would prevail. What didn't seem worthwhile to the folks who were alive at that time, may well indeed be deemed highly desirable by the replacement people in our imaginary scenario.
You cannot alter one thing and rely on all else remaining constant.
I think you are missing my point. Which is that regardless of the time period, some civilizations just do not have the desire to militarily dominate their neighbors and/or people in distant lands even if they can.
Right offhand, I can't think of any recent despots who are using state of the art technology even today. In the past half century, what despots have used anything high-tech to sieze control or subjugate a population? Maybe a car battery to hook up electrodes to, but that's about it.
Mussolini's Italy and Franco's Spain would have had censoring filters on the Internet to block any material in conflict with the regime's ideologies, much like China has right now - given that Latin Fascism wasn't as concerned with propagating its ideology to the world like Communism or Nazism but more concerned with just limiting thought and speech that directly contradicted the regime's official ideology.
Apartheid era South Africa would not have had the Internet. They didn't have TV until deep into the '70s because they were paranoid about outside ideas coming in, and particularly in limiting the population's access to media reflecting the social changes in America and Britain.
I HATE to imagine what Nazi Germany would've done with the Internet....
Nazi Germany was quite comfortable with new information technology imagine what Joseph Goebbles could have done with Youtube. Actually you don't have to imagine this, you can find plenty of Nazi, Neo-Nazi and White supremacy stuff on the Web and Youtube. Some of it would have pleased Herr Dr Goebbles.The Internet is not a freedom enhancer and my example of this is Internet services in the largest nation in the world - China.
genghis khan is alive and well, he just attacked google with his shock troops.
if they are successful they will take over all computer systems and rule us w/o firing a shot.
our weapons systems will become their thru a keyboard overnight.
I think you are missing my point. Which is that regardless of the time period, some civilizations just do not have the desire to militarily dominate their neighbors and/or people in distant lands even if they can.
And I know that you have failed to grasp mine.
Last attempt...
Your reliance is on a Chinese society which has somehow become industrialized to the point where they can produce AK 47s, yet has not changed in any other manner.
That could not happen.
The technology would make them a completely different people and you cannot predict their behavior based on what they would have been had they not become industrialized.
Your reliance is on a Chinese society which has somehow become industrialized to the point where they can produce AK 47s, yet has not changed in any other manner.
That could not happen.
The technology would make them a completely different people and you cannot predict their behavior based on what they would have been had they not become industrialized.
Oh I grasp your point, but I am saying it is completely irrelevant to my point. You are saying you cannot modify historical examples to speculate about "what if they had X special technology" because having the ability to get that technology would have altered their society in other major ways.
What I am saying is that X having the power to dominate Y militarily does not mean X will dominate Y militarily. As you suggested when you said the bolded part of the quote below...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander
You didn't think this one through, did you?
In the offered scenario, the Indians have AK-47's, the Europeans are still in the musket age. Now, if they did not manufacture them themselves, from where did the AK 47's come?
China?
Africa?
If China or Africa had AK 47's while Europeans were still in the musket age, then those places would be dominating the planet, including the Europeans and Native Americans.
Let's take the example of Herat, Afghanistan. It was coveted by Genghiz Khan, the Soviets, the Taliban, and the US puppet Karzai regime. Each of them, with the same objective, used very different strategies, accoprding to the technology of the day. Genghis sent in horsemen to kill every living person in Herat. The Soviets parked tanks in the streets and got shot when they got out to pee. The Taliban infiltrated the city in Isuzu pickups and intimidated the citizens by glaring and aiming rifles at them. The US threw money and talked on cell phones about them and showed Herat to embedded reporters. Is that how Genghiz Khan, in order to fulfill his fairly simple aspiration of taking Herat, would have subdued the city today?
[color=red][b]Nazi Germany was quite comfortable with new information technology imagine what Joseph Goebbles could have done with Youtube. Actually you don't have to imagine this, you can find plenty of Nazi, Neo-Nazi and White supremacy stuff on the Web and Youtube. Some of it would have pleased Herr Dr Goebbles.
That's exactly what I meant when I said I hated to imagine what Nazi Germany would have done with the Internet. Think all the Nazi stuff online times 1000 as it would be sponsored by the government of a large and powerful country.
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