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Donn2390,
There's a method where the casing is nailed to the jamb on one side, and the frame is placed into the opening with a level placed on the butt casing, plumbed and nailed in place, followed by the head, and strike aligning the margins. Casing is the placed on the opposite side and the installer walks away. Using this method the jamb is solely dependent on the casing for support. Most, do not support this method, but it is used in piecework residential.
Moving forward, I amazed at your problem solving idea of having new doors prepped for your existing openings. I used to work with a guy that always told me to worry about solutions, and not problems. That said, rather than take all your doors down. Measure each opening with a note about it's location. IE: master bedroom 2'-6" and so on. You must also note the swing. If you put your butt to the butt of the door it will either swing right or left. So now you have master bedroom 2'-6" RH, or right hand. Others may try to make handing more difficult by using terms like "Left Hand Reverse Bevel" or LHRB, but this is really reserved for the handing of hardware, and most hardware today goes both ways, but it should be mentioned. I would take him 1 door for him to mirror butt, and cylinder locations, so there's no chance of misunderstood measurements.
Next, should you choose to do your own install? Most likely you won't screw on the butts and have even margins (the gap being equal between the jamb, and door). If the casing will allow you can bend the barrels with the pin removed to either push the door closer or further. Let's say you have 1/8" at the top strike side, but almost a 1/4" at the bottom. Bend the bottom hinge barrels toward the strike, and reinstall the pin. This is a slow process, but is worth it in the end. You may have to remove the butt entirely and do this in a vise if the casing won't allow it. You could also put shim stock behind the butts, however too much may become unsightly.
Donn2390,
There's a method where the casing is nailed to the jamb on one side, and the frame is placed into the opening with a level placed on the butt casing, plumbed and nailed in place, followed by the head, and strike aligning the margins. Casing is the placed on the opposite side and the installer walks away. Using this method the jamb is solely dependent on the casing for support. Most, do not support this method, but it is used in piecework residential.
Moving forward, I amazed at your problem solving idea of having new doors prepped for your existing openings. I used to work with a guy that always told me to worry about solutions, and not problems. That said, rather than take all your doors down. Measure each opening with a note about it's location. IE: master bedroom 2'-6" and so on. You must also note the swing. If you put your butt to the butt of the door it will either swing right or left. So now you have master bedroom 2'-6" RH, or right hand. Others may try to make handing more difficult by using terms like "Left Hand Reverse Bevel" or LHRB, but this is really reserved for the handing of hardware, and most hardware today goes both ways, but it should be mentioned. I would take him 1 door for him to mirror butt, and cylinder locations, so there's no chance of misunderstood measurements.
Next, should you choose to do your own install? Most likely you won't screw on the butts and have even margins (the gap being equal between the jamb, and door). If the casing will allow you can bend the barrels with the pin removed to either push the door closer or further. Let's say you have 1/8" at the top strike side, but almost a 1/4" at the bottom. Bend the bottom hinge barrels toward the strike, and reinstall the pin. This is a slow process, but is worth it in the end. You may have to remove the butt entirely and do this in a vise if the casing won't allow it. You could also put shim stock behind the butts, however too much may become unsightly.
I'll start by saying when I hire a sub I expect a complete/100% job. That's what you're paid for; that's what you quoted.
So, I don't hire "punch-out" men- why pay twice for a job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWillys
This is a slow process, but is worth it in the end.
This got one trim carpenter fired! And cost me plenty in new hinges because the surface was so mangled and gnarly looking; what a dumbass! My assessment of his work came down to one question: if the door had been installed correctly, would you have had to spend so much time destroying my hinges?
Bending hinges is nothing new when it comes to adjusting the alignment of a door- knowing how to do it properly is the big secret- but again, I emphasize "if it's installed correctly to begin with, there should be no need to bend hinges".
I'll start by saying when I hire a sub I expect a complete/100% job. That's what you're paid for; that's what you quoted.
So, I don't hire "punch-out" men- why pay twice for a job.
This got one trim carpenter fired! And cost me plenty in new hinges because the surface was so mangled and gnarly looking; what a dumbass! My assessment of his work came down to one question: if the door had been installed correctly, would you have had to spend so much time destroying my hinges?
Bending hinges is nothing new when it comes to adjusting the alignment of a door- knowing how to do it properly is the big secret- but again, I emphasize "if it's installed correctly to begin with, there should be no need to bend hinges".
Having you continually take my posts out of context is an honor, and yet tiring at the same time. I'm putting forth positive information for the op in a thread, and you choose to berate my statements with your comments about hiring substandard installers as if to imply I may be a part of the latter.
Follow the subject matter. The op has said he is going to have new doors mortised for his existing openings. Are you saying his existing jambs are installed so perfectly that each door should go in and have perfect margins? Not a snowballs chance in hell will this happen. We could install 3'-0" x 8'-10" aluminum jambs with sides perfectly plumb & level. The doors would show up and be so heavy they would sag. We'd use this on the upper butts to pull it back up. http://gklproducts.com/uploads/GKL_H...or_Catalog.pdf
I used to work with the guy who invented it!
Bending, and shimming hinges has been done since doors were invented. As you said yourself when done right it makes the installation look good. I was taught 3 rules for construction. The right way, the wrong way, and the way to make it look good, and we're only interested in the 3rd one. Doesn't matter if it is right if it doesn't look good.
So back off, and listen, and you may learn from someone other than your own (quite clearly) massive ego. I've purposely have kept my qualifications quiet, because my father taught me to let my work speak for myself. I believe my posts here do this, and don't need to be berated to support your lack of self esteem.
You picked apart my document I created for my students without understanding the full context. The student was using a mockup that was about 10" off the ground. It was easier to remove the door than try and support it so high off the ground. Rather than frustrate them, I thought it was more important to reinforce the basic concepts. Interior, or exterior doors in shacks make little difference as you tried to imply! The student body was so diverse I thought it more important for them to retain the information as they may not be called to use for years to come. IE: I could be teaching a T-Bar guy. My 5 years as an instructor was done at a state accredited apprenticeship that required a Vocational teaching credential I acquired through San Jose State University.
Should I post this, or am I lowering myself to his level?????
I was looking for new doors two years ago.... most were flimsy and light.. the doors I have on my house are heavy, so what my husband did was to take the doors off sand them all down... undercoat, then put fine mouldings from the DIY store in panels.. then paint with a small sponge roller , they look effective and didnt cost much at all ...
The one thing you can count on with doors is you can't count on them. Each manufacturer has their own take on butt (hinge) location as well as the lockset. The only way to do as you want is too buy blanks and mortise (router prep) them onsite. Architects will spec 7" from the top, and 10" from the floor, and equal, or sometimes 5" 10" & equal, but as I said each is usually slightly different. This is why they told you it's easy just to remove and replace. With all due respect, it is your ignorance of the subject matter, and not that they're trying to take advantage. Mortising can take time in the field vs a guy that does it all day at the factory. Plus the blanks could be slightly bigger, or smaller further complicating the installation.
I've had 200 doors show up, and 200 frames in commercial where the butt locations don't match. WHOOPS!
I did a replacement of all doors--just bought new doors for entire house, not pre-hung. Used my router, and bought a router door guide, easy job, worked well, looks perfect. I did 3 or 4 doors at a time and completed the job over several weekends. After first few door it is a piece of cake. BUT, my old doors were cheap, hollow doors. If yours are solid oak, good and expensive it sounds, I would not replace them. Do a build on molding---there are many tricks you can do to make them look perfect--based on the molding selection, size, and even build up of a plywood panel on the door under the molding. They will look great if you take your time and research. I would not replace quality existing doors with prehung replacement--$200 a door for a carpenter to install pre-hung doors is too cheap to have a quality replacement door. A good oak door in going to be twice that price, not prehung. Can't be using quality door if $200 pre-hung installed.
I understand what you are saying, but this home is only six years old, and semi-custom, so the condition doesn't concern me. Of course I would inspect for true, and condition before making decision. Thanks for pointing our a potential trouble area...
At this point I'd step back and ask yourself whether you're over-improving the home. Unless this is a multi-million dollar property in a trendy area, replacing high quality finishes seems excessive on a relatively new house. (In which case you'd probably not bat an eye at $500/door!)
A follow up to my question of replacing and painting my flat panel doors. After much research and listening to all who chimed in on this thread, I made the decision to have my existing doors refinished.
It seemed a crime to discard my good, solid doors and replace them with new doors, plus the cost was astronomical. It did it the green way, saved the old doors from the scrap pile...
To replace 22 doors with new pre-hung doors, including cost of doors, installation labor, painting and hardware was in excess of $11,000.00, so I re purposed my existing doors.
I called the man who did all of my crown molding and baseboard molding. He added moldings to the doors to simulate the look of two panel doors, replaced the side trim moldings with fancier trim to match the crown and baseboard, painted the doors, the jams, replaced and painted the side trim on two french doors to match the other doors, and painted the wood window ledges on 10 windows.
It makes all the difference in the world in the appearance, and the total cost was $3600.00, including all the extra work not included in the original estimate for replacing with pre-hung doors.
Two professionals working hard for six days, there is no way I could have done that job in a year. He admitted he wouldn't do it again for that price, he got more than he bargained for, but he has made a bundle off of me over the years.
Now with my custom baseboard and crown molding, and the beautiful new white doors, the next project is to put some colors on the walls to make the white molding really pop. I would have the place painted tomorrow if I knew what color to paint. Time to start the research on what color to paint the walls...
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