Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
joe33, thank you very much for outlining the logic on fewer returns. do most people agree with him? fewer returns -- maybe one or two in the hallway and one in the master (the 14 x 13 room) -- is the way to go?
leisesturm, thanks for pointing me to portable AC units. my wife has shot down minisplits because she doesn't like the look (and we've spent a ton of effort rehabbing the house in a historical fashion). but maybe she'd be open to a couple of those. i'm not opposed to a piecemeal solution and would obviously prefer to avoid dropping $5,000. so more suggestions along that line are welcome!
btuhack, the current system is a 2.5 ton unit. the first floor can be quite comfortable, especially when you consider the lack of insulation and the old windows. (i don't want to insulate the walls because they're brick and that causes problems; the old windows are part of the house's charm.) the second floor does ok in the winter since the heat rises; we keep the house pretty cold, at 60-62 (i guess i'll have to change that with the baby, too), and the second floor keeps up well. but in the summer the system just doesn't cut it -- in part due to that lack of returns, i guess. there is one spot with a staircase where i might be able to squeeze in a return without it being too ugly. i guess one option is to seal and insulate the attic now and add the return and then just see if everything works well enough to live with.
as for the "draw up downstairs air" that's something one of the vendors told me. it may be wrong. but i think his point was with the heat rising you won't really need to use the second unit's heater very often. (it's just going to be a small electric one.) so one of the things you can do is use it as a whole house fan, but i get that sucking the air up there will just move it through ducts outside the envelope. sigh. this is all so complicated -- i feel like there are tradeoffs at every point.
speaking of tradeoffs, i realize installing a whole house fan would also be a good option but we don't really open our windows because 1) my wife has really bad allergies; and 2) our old windows have encapsulated lead paint, so i try to minimize the friction there.
anyway, thank you all for your help. if anyone else wants to chime in i'm open to anything.
We have the same issue with our 1911 Four Square. It's just the two of us and we put a window unit in our bedroom. I understand the way your wife feels about "the look" but it's only for a couple of months out of the year.
We have a big walk up attic as well but the thought of wrecking "the look" of that spooky old place and having holes in the ceilings next to our beautiful old historic light fixtures destroys "the look" every day.
I'll live with the air conditioner in the window for the three or four months vs all those holes in the ceiling which totally ruin the historic look. That nearly 5k in savings will go into something else to preserve the look.
There are always compromises when you live in a great old house. A tiny air conditioner in a window is just not that serious. Keeping the down stairs warm in negative temperatures is our biggest issue. We close the pocket doors and bring in the space heater.
We have the same issue with our 1911 Four Square. It's just the two of us and we put a window unit in our bedroom. I understand the way your wife feels about "the look" but it's only for a couple of months out of the year.
We have a big walk up attic as well but the thought of wrecking "the look" of that spooky old place and having holes in the ceilings next to our beautiful old historic light fixtures destroys "the look" every day.
I'll live with the air conditioner in the window for the three or four months vs all those holes in the ceiling which totally ruin the historic look. That nearly 5k in savings will go into something else to preserve the look.
There are always compromises when you live in a great old house. A tiny air conditioner in a window is just not that serious. Keeping the down stairs warm in negative temperatures is our biggest issue. We close the pocket doors and bring in the space heater.
Its not that hard to hide the duct and the registers with a little thought and planning. I did many historic homes and very expensive homes that they didnt want to see any mechanical at all or hear the air movement. A good heating and air conditioning system always adds to the value of a home.
ctf9, I salute your efforts to preserve the historic nature of your home!
I have a frame house similar in size to yours, and it has even less insulation. I've found that the heat that builds up in the attic radiates through the ceiling, making my second floor hotter than it should be just from heat rising from the first floor. My attic is a walk-up, and I will eventually insulate the roof. But, until then, I just keep the attic windows open to allow some of the heat to escape, and am trying to perfect the stack effect.
But that's neither here nor there. For you, I'd recommend two things, before you spend the money for a second AC system. 1. Insulate your attic, because I bet the built-up heat in your attic is making your second floor warmer. 2. Take a look at interior storm windows. They let you keep the historic look of your original windows on the outside of the house. And, because you said you don't open your windows much, due to the possible dangers of lead, they would help contain that, as well. And, of course, your old windows become just about as efficient as new replacements. Here's a place to start, to show what I'm talking about, but I've never used them: http://www.stormwindows.com/
Last edited by JR_C; 05-29-2016 at 01:55 PM..
Reason: forgot link
I second that thought- before spending thousands of dollars on something that may or maynot be needed; insulate the attic!
Using interior storm windows is the least evasive means of gaining some additional insulating value. There are several companies that can take old sashes and retrofit them for IG glass. They also use retrofit spring balances that alleviate the old pocket counterweights- the cavities can be filled with insulation.
Another thing I thought about is why the retention of the interior? Is the home actually a registered historic home, or are you using the term "historic" as "old"?
You already stated that there are registers in the rooms. Adding another unit would just use the existing supplies and a need for two returns- as previously stated.
It's a shame no one had mentioned to you about Unico systems.
I second that thought- before spending thousands of dollars on something that may or maynot be needed; insulate the attic!
Using interior storm windows is the least evasive means of gaining some additional insulating value. There are several companies that can take old sashes and retrofit them for IG glass. They also use retrofit spring balances that alleviate the old pocket counterweights- the cavities can be filled with insulation.
Another thing I thought about is why the retention of the interior? Is the home actually a registered historic home, or are you using the term "historic" as "old"?
You already stated that there are registers in the rooms. Adding another unit would just use the existing supplies and a need for two returns- as previously stated.
It's a shame no one had mentioned to you about Unico systems.
The problem with A/C is that the insulation in the attic of a second story house just makes the 2nd floor hotter. Heat rises
Just something to consider: room sized air conditioners (up to 12,000 BTU's) have become very efficient - like refrigerators. There is a huge difference between the amount of electricity needed by the old models, compared to the new ones. HUGE difference. Example: my new large refrigerator uses 1/3 the juice my tinier 15 year old one does.
I have a need for a chilly room to sleep in and in my desert Southwest house, I put one of these in my bedroom. Wow! I leave the rest of the house at 82 degrees (which is just fine) but I can curl up in my bedroom, under a quilt, with A/C set to about 70 degrees. Costs about as much to run as the flat panel TV. You just have to go on Amazon and look at the specs. They do vary.
A couple of those may work (although Indiana is a humid place, so I can't say for sure). I think it's worth considering (and, no, if this a historic house, not sticking out a window on the front of the house - do it right).
I have window units (in my whole 2200 square foot, 1893 Victorian house) but they are a pain in the arse when winter comes. I have to carry them to the basement, and I am getting older and my back is not great. Then I have to do the reverse in the spring. Some of them weigh 60+ pounds and you have to carry the weight in front of you, not below you like a dumbbell.
So I've started replacing the big old dinosaurs with smaller, much more efficient units in the 8,000 BTU range. They weigh less, are easier to install and uninstall, and pack a punch. Three is plenty for my upstairs and I usually just use two.
thanks for explaining the logic behind one big return, joe33 -- that makes sense.
btuhack, the largest room (the master), faces the north east. if you were going to add one more return would you do it in that room or just put one on each end of the hallway?
one more question for anyone, really: does it matter if the returns and supplies are both on the ceiling? the bids i've received all suggest that's how they'll do it, but i've read in a few places where people recommend putting some vertical space between supplies and returns.
thanks, bungalove and papichulo2, for your advice.
and leisesturm trust me, a couple window units sounds more appealing with each hour spent wrestling with this decision!
The problem with A/C is that the insulation in the attic of a second story house just makes the 2nd floor hotter. Heat rises
What tha..?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
