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That aluminum wiring we may not have heard the last of it yet.
Might be coming to a car near you. One of my BIL's is a designer and works for one of the big auto parts manufacturer. He told me they are in the planning stages of putting aluminum wiring in cars. Price of copper is driving everything. He told me which cars but I better not say at this point.
Even brought a sample and showed me. Strange looking stuff, appeared to be like a very ultra fine copper with a tinned coating. Nothing really gave it away that it was aluminum. Looked bright and shinny. Had a good feel to it, might be some type of fancy new alloy.
I know aluminum wiring has been very problematic in just about any application it was tried. Even places where the wire was copper but they had to ground to aluminum structures. Horrible stories abound.
Be interesting to see how it works in cars. Showed me some of the new connectors. Looks about like your typical crimp on type.
As far as the aluminum wiring goes. While Cosmic thinks that inspectors should remove all the outlet and switch covers and check the circuits, that's really beyond the scope of a typical home inspection (and all related Standards of Practice). As inspectors, we will check the inside of the panel, and if we see aluminum wiring on the 120V circuits, we will advise you of the potential problems, and suggest you get an electrician to correct the problem.
Like others have said, solid conductor aluminum wiring is a problem. One very important thing to check, is if the wire size is correct for the rating of the breaker (aluminum needs to be one size larger than copper). If it isn't, then the problem just got bigger.
The new auto wiring sounds like tinned copper wiring that was common in the 50's.
As far as the water goes. The FIRST thing to figure out is WHY the water is getting in there, then do something about it. I don't recall if you said how old the house is. Is the crawlspace vented?
Drilling the slab to let it drain out is a bad idea. Then it's just going under the slab and may undermine the footings. You want the water OUT. Drain it to a sump then pump it out and away from the foundation.
If the house is musty smelling, there IS a moisture problem. Is there any fungus growth on the joists? The plumbing pipes look very rusted under there. A sign that the moisture problem is a long term on-going problem. You really should get a mold expert to check it out. You probably don't need a full blown testing. I'm sure they can probably do some spot testing and tell you what's up.
The foundation wall to the left of the photo looks like it has had a water proofing material such as Dam-Tite or Dry-Lok applied. That would suggest to me, there is an on going problem and the owners have tried to address it - without success.
To me (IMHO), unless this is your dream house, and you are getting the deal of a lifetime, it's not worth the effort, money, and headache you will probably invest in it. I would walk - but I may have a different threshold for issues than others.
As far as the aluminum wiring goes. While Cosmic thinks that inspectors should remove all the outlet and switch covers and check the circuits, that's really beyond the scope of a typical home inspection (and all related Standards of Practice). As inspectors, we will check the inside of the panel, and if we see aluminum wiring on the 120V circuits, we will advise you of the potential problems, and suggest you get an electrician to correct the problem.
Like others have said, solid conductor aluminum wiring is a problem. One very important thing to check, is if the wire size is correct for the rating of the breaker (aluminum needs to be one size larger than copper). If it isn't, then the problem just got bigger.
The new auto wiring sounds like tinned copper wiring that was common in the 50's.
As far as the water goes. The FIRST thing to figure out is WHY the water is getting in there, then do something about it. I don't recall if you said how old the house is. Is the crawlspace vented?
Drilling the slab to let it drain out is a bad idea. Then it's just going under the slab and may undermine the footings. You want the water OUT. Drain it to a sump then pump it out and away from the foundation.
If the house is musty smelling, there IS a moisture problem. Is there any fungus growth on the joists? The plumbing pipes look very rusted under there. A sign that the moisture problem is a long term on-going problem. You really should get a mold expert to check it out. You probably don't need a full blown testing. I'm sure they can probably do some spot testing and tell you what's up.
The foundation wall to the left of the photo looks like it has had a water proofing material such as Dam-Tite or Dry-Lok applied. That would suggest to me, there is an on going problem and the owners have tried to address it - without success.
To me (IMHO), unless this is your dream house, and you are getting the deal of a lifetime, it's not worth the effort, money, and headache you will probably invest in it. I would walk - but I may have a different threshold for issues than others.
Good luck
Just think what other product does one buy that is like a house? One where the "Overhead" is so expensive and so many folks have their nose deep in the trough but never have any real responsibility. Tough job but a lot of folks have to do it!!!!!
Something where you pay a lot of fees, taxes, commissions and "Others Charges", hire experts who simply refer you to "More Experts and opinions are couched in maybe's. Are stockbrokers or the medical profession this bad??? Chuckle. Shouldn't they actually have to tell the real scope of any problem???
After all the paying, why is the poor sucker still left holding all the risk. Hey, that does sound about like what stockbrokers and a lot of doc's having been doing for a long time. The club has just gotten bigger.
After all if you consider many new houses and what percent that total "Overhead" is, shouldn't the final product be better? Codes coming out our ears, inspections at every phase, Standards, Practices, Paperwork as far as the eye can see and more mumbo jumbo how could any house ever have a problem? O' Dear such a tangled web.
The sad truth the entire industry has become a bloated mess where real truth is probably only by accident and that will cost even more. When in doubt, throw more paper and charge for it again. Good work if a fellow can get it.
No that new aluminum wire I was talking about is not a form of tinned fine stranded copper. Apparently they must have tried some type of fancy new alloy. Might be the solution, if you can find a way to prevent it oxidizing. Maybe that is what is required, a better mousetrap for the future. This particular automotive company is well known for their engineering. Price of copper is not going to drop, sounds like something to have been researched. Apparently it will be in the new cars, well passed the lab phase. If I understood right, they are in the design phases of producing the new wiring harnesses.
That might be some sage advice to take a walk on a house unless it is screaming "Buy Me" for some unGodly reason, especially if it has problems. You can get more inspections (with all their weasel words), more experts (probably have to pay them), when in doubt they will just use Authority and Certification until the smoke clears and you are standing in the mud holding all the risk. What a business, indeed a sad state of affairs.
I would agree find the source of the water and stop it if possible. Barring that I would try to "Fill and grade" the slab to allow any water that does get in there to drain out naturally via gravity. There are methods to get something to bond to the slab, got to be the most fool proof method in the long run.
Plus I would want to talk to an "Expert" who really would solve the problem, how much it would cost and know they will be responsible for the results. When in doubt with anything about a house avoid "Overhead Queens" and put the money into real fixes. Get a real working contractor who will stand behind his work. Demand they be in a position to look out for your interests.
Those of you unfamiliar with the OP's real estate region problems- handyman specials have been the only thing not outrageously inflated for over a decade. Walking as an advantageous business decision will result in walking into another handyman special with a different set of issues.
I suggest OP get solid prices on contractor corrections, subtract it from the price you're willing to offer, and if they try dragging you into too much debt leaving you less able to make repairs, move along. With market problems now in play, you're more likely to find a manageable bargain in foreclosure/REO category, without the having to accept the punishment of grossly inflated garbage.
Cos- I came to a disturbing realization years back that the american dream has been taxed to death with intricately designed schemes for voluntary indentured servitude. Trying to please everyone with more better bigger faster and locals expecting utopia if only we pay for another committee. I get the priviledge of having all the responsibility/liability of being a 'home owner' but own nothing if it can be confiscated by gov't on basis of failure to pay my lease by the municipal based taxes or evoking imminent domain. Feudal/serf/sharecropper- owning is an illusion. Wasn't this why my granny got on a boat?
The only way out I could find was to buffer myself from multi tiered govt tax, avoid the competitive clamour of where everybody HAS to be, and aim for a best kept secret.
I aint tellin where I live now, and will be careful not to be too happy in public.
Contractors/inspectors/ordinance for other than new construction-
in a perfect world best practices were known right out the gate, standards set in stone, and everyone everywhere was trained uniformly. The stepford wives of architecture.
Thankfully, this world does not exist (except for condo parks in florida?).
Regional diversity, progress, standards evolve over space/time and things will never be idyllic as a result. Just have to start where you are and approach it intelligently, best I can tell from collective thread reading.
being a designer in this industry, a great deal of the problems does not sit with the builder, it is the city or the governing body that should take a good deal of the blame in alot of what is happening. We can take Boulder county Colorado for example. They just adopted two new energy rating systems, they are so strict that the majority of the builders that have been in the past building within the county, will not be able to afford to build anymore in the county. Of course they are in the biz to make money, but when the cost of materials due to these programs is so high, and the profit margins disappear due to the local prices it becomes the choice to stop building, or attempt to cut corners. Now I am not making excuses for the shady builders that decide the cutting corners are the way to make big money. But when you are a business man in an area trying to place food on your table, and you have two choices, to go hungry and close up shop, or to attempt anything you can to get money for food. New codes are great, they make building safer for both the builder and the home owner, but forcing somethings like solar panels if you want a pool (raises the price of the pool by 25k-50k) or forcing massive amounts of paperwork for the designers and the builders to fill out before you can think of asking permission to build on a 10 acre land with a 2500 sqft. house your asking for trouble. Either the house is going to be incredibly expensive, or there may be problems.
back to the OP's question. If the price to get the water problem fixed is too high, I would walk away! It is not worth dealing with a potential disaster like this one. If there is mold found, you must disclose this information at the time of sale, which could drive quite a few away from the sale. You could have the mold mitigated, or the water problems mitigated but it will always need to be disclosed to buyers. Changing the slope to drain water out of the basement naturally is not a good idea, the water should NOT be there in the first place. You should NEVER have standing water, or running water in a crawlspace or a basement.
Since Cos copied my post, I feel obligated to respond.
The American Society of Home Inspectors (est 1976) developed the Standards of Practice to spell out exactly what home inspectors are required to do, what we are not required to do, and a Code Of Ethics to spell out how we are to conduct ourselves. The SOP's spell out the purpose and scope of the inspection.
In a nutshell, home inspections are to find "significantly deficient items", or items that are near the end of their service lives.
We are "generalists" - we know a lot about ALL of the systems in a house, but are probably not an expert in any. Think of us as general practitioners, and not specialists.
You made the comment about the medical profession and said, "Shouldn't they actually have to tell the real scope of any problem???". Honestly, you can't be that ignorant that you think your family Dr. is going to be able to tell you everything about the cancer that has popped up in your body. Your Dr. may very well have seen signs that led him/her to have further tests run (to rule out, or identify major problems), and refer you to the specialist that has more education and training in that particular field.
If you take your car to the corner tune up center, and they identify a transmission problem, you can bet that they are not going to do the repair, they are going to send you (or the transmission) down the street, to the "transmission guy". Why? Because he has the extra training and experience to do the job.
Consider the home inspector as the family Dr., or "generalist". We know a lot about ALL of the systems in a house. For the most part, we are not "experts". We are there to identify and report on things that are significantly deficient, or at the end of their service life. We are not there to "design" the repair - or do repairs. We tell our clients what we found.
If someone wants that "specialist", they can certainly hire one, but the cost would be much higher than a typical home inspection. Consider the cost of hiring a roofer, electrician, plumber, heating contractor, structural engineer, general contractor and others.
To expect a home inspector to pull off all the outlets and switches, etc during a home inspection is unreasonable. In this case, opening the panel tells me there is solid aluminum wiring. THAT in itself is reason to have an electrician give a quote on replacing/correcting the wiring. "I" would probably pull a few outlet covers off and look inside, but there really isn't much point. I have already identified a problem that NEEDS repair. The person that is going to do the repair, is the one that needs to determine the scope of the repair work.
If we see moisture stains on a wall or ceiling, we can't very well cut open the section to look inside. We CAN take a moisture meter and see if the stain is currently WET. We CAN probe the area and see if the material is damaged. If we find a stain that is wet, we will call it out as needing repair. If it was a house you were selling, I can imagine your joy to come home and find sections of drywall opened up because the potential buyer wanted to see inside.
It's very easy to sit up in the peanut gallery and cast stones at those of us that actually do this for a living. People that have unrealistic expectations of what someone is going to do for them should try to walk in someone else's shoes for a while.
Your post reminds me of previous clients I have had - some I have fired before I had to work for them. Here's some quotes:
1. "I'm getting this inspection so I will never have a problem with my house - cuz you are going to guarantee everything, right?"
2. I put in my report that the roof was shot and would need to be replaced within 6 months - "My roof leaked after 4 months, you said it would LAST 6 months".
3. "I want you to put in your report that the driveway needs to be replaced" The driveway had a few cracks less than 1/16" wide. I said, sorry, I can't put that in my report. It's 15 years old and looks good, it only has two small cracks - like every driveway around here. She said "I'M PAYING YOU AND YOU WILL PUT WHATEVER I SAY INTO THE REPORT"
I fired her.
4. Even though I called out several signs of past moisture intrusion, and moisture damaged wood, and misdirected downspouts - the client called and complained that I didn't tell her water would come into her basement.
5. Several people have called ranting and raving about whatever issue - I pull out the report and ask them if the bothered to read the part where I told them about the problem AND included a photo of it in the report.
However, no matter how bad some of these people are, what makes my job rewarding are the e-mails, and letters from the clients that I have helped, thanking me for the excellent job I did for them.
Since Cos copied my post, I feel obligated to respond.
The American Society of Home Inspectors (est 1976) developed the Standards of Practice to spell out exactly what home inspectors are required to do, what we are not required to do, and a Code Of Ethics to spell out how we are to conduct ourselves. The SOP's spell out the purpose and scope of the inspection.
In a nutshell, home inspections are to find "significantly deficient items", or items that are near the end of their service lives.
We are "generalists" - we know a lot about ALL of the systems in a house, but are probably not an expert in any. Think of us as general practitioners, and not specialists.
You made the comment about the medical profession and said, "Shouldn't they actually have to tell the real scope of any problem???". Honestly, you can't be that ignorant that you think your family Dr. is going to be able to tell you everything about the cancer that has popped up in your body. Your Dr. may very well have seen signs that led him/her to have further tests run (to rule out, or identify major problems), and refer you to the specialist that has more education and training in that particular field.
If you take your car to the corner tune up center, and they identify a transmission problem, you can bet that they are not going to do the repair, they are going to send you (or the transmission) down the street, to the "transmission guy". Why? Because he has the extra training and experience to do the job.
Consider the home inspector as the family Dr., or "generalist". We know a lot about ALL of the systems in a house. For the most part, we are not "experts". We are there to identify and report on things that are significantly deficient, or at the end of their service life. We are not there to "design" the repair - or do repairs. We tell our clients what we found.
If someone wants that "specialist", they can certainly hire one, but the cost would be much higher than a typical home inspection. Consider the cost of hiring a roofer, electrician, plumber, heating contractor, structural engineer, general contractor and others.
To expect a home inspector to pull off all the outlets and switches, etc during a home inspection is unreasonable. In this case, opening the panel tells me there is solid aluminum wiring. THAT in itself is reason to have an electrician give a quote on replacing/correcting the wiring. "I" would probably pull a few outlet covers off and look inside, but there really isn't much point. I have already identified a problem that NEEDS repair. The person that is going to do the repair, is the one that needs to determine the scope of the repair work.
If we see moisture stains on a wall or ceiling, we can't very well cut open the section to look inside. We CAN take a moisture meter and see if the stain is currently WET. We CAN probe the area and see if the material is damaged. If we find a stain that is wet, we will call it out as needing repair. If it was a house you were selling, I can imagine your joy to come home and find sections of drywall opened up because the potential buyer wanted to see inside.
It's very easy to sit up in the peanut gallery and cast stones at those of us that actually do this for a living. People that have unrealistic expectations of what someone is going to do for them should try to walk in someone else's shoes for a while.
Your post reminds me of previous clients I have had - some I have fired before I had to work for them. Here's some quotes:
1. "I'm getting this inspection so I will never have a problem with my house - cuz you are going to guarantee everything, right?"
2. I put in my report that the roof was shot and would need to be replaced within 6 months - "My roof leaked after 4 months, you said it would LAST 6 months".
3. "I want you to put in your report that the driveway needs to be replaced" The driveway had a few cracks less than 1/16" wide. I said, sorry, I can't put that in my report. It's 15 years old and looks good, it only has two small cracks - like every driveway around here. She said "I'M PAYING YOU AND YOU WILL PUT WHATEVER I SAY INTO THE REPORT"
I fired her.
4. Even though I called out several signs of past moisture intrusion, and moisture damaged wood, and misdirected downspouts - the client called and complained that I didn't tell her water would come into her basement.
5. Several people have called ranting and raving about whatever issue - I pull out the report and ask them if the bothered to read the part where I told them about the problem AND included a photo of it in the report.
However, no matter how bad some of these people are, what makes my job rewarding are the e-mails, and letters from the clients that I have helped, thanking me for the excellent job I did for them.
Sorry this is so long.......
tried to rep you again spider, but it would not let you.
You can look at your home inspector if we use the medical idea, as a diagnostic tool, they can look and find things that are wrong, and can be potentially wrong.
Look at your contractors for electrical, as your neurologists, your framers and structural as your orthopedic doctor.
your drywallers and cosmetic stuff as your cosmetic surgeon.
and your Architectural designer as your "boss" lmfao!!! or as an expert in the way the body works (professor of medicine)
they all have a job to do, and they do it well. If an inspector tells you you need to have something looked at, find the appropriate "doctor" and have it repaired, dont expect your diagnostic guy to pull out his surgeon tools to start to operate
Great to see some light shine through, almost an admission, that there are vast differences in education and experience between a designer, a drafter, an architect, and a master carpenter. Each function separate and together. Each invaluble in their own right.
Not recognizing the limitations of a job title hurts the industry in the eyes of those not involved, and on the job directly. Playing games isn't getting it built. What a shame when feast of ego prevails. Everybody goes hungry.
Great to see some light shine through, almost an admission, that there are vast differences in education and experience between a designer, a drafter, an architect, and a master carpenter. Each function separate and together. Each invaluble in their own right.
Not recognizing the limitations of a job title hurts the industry in the eyes of those not involved, and on the job directly. Playing games isn't getting it built. What a shame when feast of ego prevails. Everybody goes hungry.
God Harborlady am I glad you have thrown all the specialists a bone. Where would we be without all the specialists. Especially those who only do left handed #30 00 doodads. Of course we do need the Generalists to guide the Specialists who then call the Experts who refer it back to the Generalists.
Just think, I bought a house without an inspection, never actually saw it prior to sending them a personal check and missed just about nothing. Amazing what you can tell just looking a a few pixs. H,mmm I need to start to do this via snail mail.
I am still looking for those Truth Specialists who will finally tell me I am getting the deal of a lifetime. H,mmm should I use a lantern????? That should be the next person to be added to the long list of folks with their nose deep in the trough. Everybody should get a Truth Report, stamped "For Your Thighs Only".
Great to see some light shine through, almost an admission, that there are vast differences in education and experience between a designer, a drafter, an architect, and a master carpenter. Each function separate and together. Each invaluble in their own right.
Not recognizing the limitations of a job title hurts the industry in the eyes of those not involved, and on the job directly. Playing games isn't getting it built. What a shame when feast of ego prevails. Everybody goes hungry.
at least in the Architectural design field, here is a basic job roll of the design side.
Architect, general has more schooling than the other areas, they are licensed with the AIA (American Institute of Architecture) in America at least. Europe has its own registration. They receive a stamp from the state they are licensed in, and have some knowledge of every area of design (structural, spacial, site ect.) They are required for stamping of large commercial, and multi family homes. There might be more, I am forgetting alot today, been a long day and im tired lol. A designer working with a licensed Architect can go for their own licenser after 10 years work under the Architect, and taking the Architectural licenser tests.
Designer, this title gets blurred quite a bit. You can gain the designer status with schooling (bachelor or masters degree) No registration required, and no stamp. You can design Single family residential, small commercial, and small multi family (usually triplex or smaller) They can work under Architects for larger buildings and multi-family work, They have a working knowledge of the full construction process and a light knowledge of structural design (you need some of this for the whole design process) Working in the industry for long periods of time, you can work your way up from Draftsman into a Designer position (which I have done) That is where the blur is lol.
Draughtsman, in nowadays time they are the lowest rung of the ladder, they place the designs handed to them by the designers or the Architects and place them on either Velum (not used much anymore) or CAD which is the standard now Adas. They generally do very little design work themselves.
All three of these are integral to the design phase of a project. You can do in most states Single family, small multi-family, and small commercial projects without the need for an Architect on the job.
in a bygone era there was a fourth position, these were the lowest of the lowest on the rung and could work themselves up as well through the ladder. They were called Tracers. They would take the hand drawings from the drafters, and would trace the drawing with ink for use in a blueline machine.
If I am leaving something out, or have some wrong information I apologize, been a long week even though its Tuesday.
Ohh, yea and a licensed Architect can place the title AIA after their name, like a doctor with MD or PHD lol..... One of these days, one of these days.
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Yep, it is a sad state of affairs........
