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We're continuing projects on the house we inherited, trying to tackle the stuff that the inspector told us we should.
One thing he pointed out is that there were not the right number of smoke detectors and some rooms that should have them did not.
There were a combo of very old, and old-ish, ones already in some rooms, and an ADT system. I had called to cancel the ADT service. I did not want it. And we had some guys in doing some flooring work before we moved in, and cutting some tiles created dust which set off the alarm. Even though we'd canceled the service, the panels wanted a code and we had no idea what it was, and the fire dept showed up. I called ADT and they said that even without the monitoring, that would happen unless we disconnected the panels. So I did that.
The issue I've got is, I don't know if the hard wired existing detectors are connected to something that would still alert the fire department, and I want nothing further to do with ADT. I figured the easiest way to update the smoke detector system would be to buy a set of 10-year-life battery powered units that communicate via radio frequency in a network along with some CO detectors made to network with all alarms. That way, I would not have to get new wiring installed for new detectors where they're missing in some rooms. This set even has a remote control to test and silence, which is pretty cool given that some of the units are way up high in a room with vaulted ceilings.
But I was not thrilled with having this weird mismatch of some new, some old, some very old, no idea if the oldest even still work, no idea if any are still involved with ADT somehow... I had an electrician come to advise on a bunch of projects including this. He said you can't "bury" the wiring from the old detectors behind drywall, it's high voltage and that is a fire hazard. But you can get just like round caps that will cover the hole but still leave the wiring accessible as is required. However, he said that hard wired is better but they only do installs on systems that their company sells because they can then guarantee those systems.
He didn't mention anything about building codes or if hardwired ones are required. (If you couldn't tell, I have since been Googling and reading and trying to learn more...had no idea that fire alarms were such a complicated matter.)
I've also heard that you can call the fire department if one of your smoke detectors stops working and they will come out and replace the battery or the unit, which is interesting. I wonder if this is a matter of handyman skills and a good ladder, or if they might have expertise to advise me about what I really need to get done here to make everything properly safe and good, up to date and up to code? I did not care much for this electrician, he looked about 20 years old and was very snippy with me and anytime a company tries to upsell me on stuff I start to hesitate...besides which the person I spoke to on the phone said that the technician would want to see our main panel, but the young man didn't mention that.
And of course here I am yet again annoyed that the company that Google said has been in business over 40 years with tons of good reviews, is not really impressing me, and wondering if I ought to just get some fella off of Nextdoor to come have a look. I'm new to a lot of this "fixing up a house" stuff and it's been hard to find good help.
The guy wants $2400 to replace 3 bathroom vent fans, three ceiling fans on the patio, and put caps in place of 3 old smoke detectors, all hardware purchased separately by us. I have no idea if this is even a fair price. I don't want to DIY this stuff, not really, I feel like electrical is way outside of my wheelhouse.
Any thoughts? Especially if anybody is an electrician?
The only way you’ll know for sure is to get a couple of other quotes.
Distinguishing between “hardwired” detectors and “alarm system” detectors is a simple matter of looking at the wires.
Interconnected detectors will have 14awg 3wire (black, white, red, and a bare ground) and have 110v. If there is no “red” it’s most likely NOT interconnected. Alarm system wiring is usually a 22awg 4wire- some call it “phone wire”; it is low voltage. Another fairly easy way to determine- line voltage will be in a J-box, low voltage is usually just a hole in the drywall (no J-box).
As to the number of detectors and their placement- that has changed a couple of times over the past 30+yrs. By “code” your home is only required to have whatever was required when the house was built. Inspectors are notorious for not quoting what was “required at time of build” versus whatever is current code for your AHJ.
There are also several AHJ’s that “over reach” on this subject matter when it comes to remodels/additions- even if the project doesn’t touch “bedrooms”- which is the biggest change for locations.
Without pics, there is no way to say for certain. Bathroom vent fans can sometimes be just appliances with a standard polarized AC plug and a socket that doesn't get changed out. Hardwired aren't that much different - usually. Ceiling fans are something that can vary more. two speed, three speed, remote, two way controls, three way controls, and so on. Capping the existing wires in three smoke detectors involves about 9 wire nuts and a screwdriver.
The price does seem high, but I don't live in a high cost area.
I have ALWAYS had issues with the code and wired fire alarms. I understand the intent, but the idea of requiring them NOT to have a circuit breaker or other means of closing off the circuit is insane to me. Make a special breaker box that costs a thousand bucks and a donation to the fire department to replace if you throw the breaker in it, have a "break glass to access" with a warning, fine. But to hardwire a circuit that runs all around a home or facility with no way to shut it off other than throwing the main (and with battery backup systems even that may not fully work)? Nuts. A plumbing leak makes a short circuit? Tough luck Charlie. That burning wire will continue to burn no matter how many breakers you flip, and if you happen to touch it, you get electrocuted. Dumb. Dumb. Dumb.
The only way you’ll know for sure is to get a couple of other quotes.
Distinguishing between “hardwired” detectors and “alarm system” detectors is a simple matter of looking at the wires.
Interconnected detectors will have 14awg 3wire (black, white, red, and a bare ground) and have 110v. If there is no “red” it’s most likely NOT interconnected. Alarm system wiring is usually a 22awg 4wire- some call it “phone wire”; it is low voltage. Another fairly easy way to determine- line voltage will be in a J-box, low voltage is usually just a hole in the drywall (no J-box).
As to the number of detectors and their placement- that has changed a couple of times over the past 30+yrs. By “code” your home is only required to have whatever was required when the house was built. Inspectors are notorious for not quoting what was “required at time of build” versus whatever is current code for your AHJ.
There are also several AHJ’s that “over reach” on this subject matter when it comes to remodels/additions- even if the project doesn’t touch “bedrooms”- which is the biggest change for locations.
Interesting! Yeah, our inspector...he said that here in AZ, inspections are not "pass/fail" it's more like all the information and just in some cases lenders may balk at writing loans if there are certain kinds of problems. We just hired him after we inherited the place so we could find out what we were dealing with, since eventually (in a year or two) we want to sell the house. Some stuff I flatly refuse to care about. One section of patio concrete is less than a quarter inch higher than its neighboring section because of settling, oh no, trip hazard. I was like if that's a trip hazard, that person just shouldn't be outside. My elderly father in law fell in various places around this property before the end but that wasn't one of them. If it was truly such a hazard, he of all people would have found it.
There were only detectors in the living room (but there are three of them of varying ages, do all work? who knows?) and one in the hall between two bedrooms and one in the main bedroom. He said we needed them in the kitchen, dining room, and both smaller bedrooms rather than the hall. When I removed the ADT wall control panels, it was just a hole in the drywall with wires sticking out and the electrician said they were low voltage and OK to patch over, they won't spark. I would still feel better, I think, if there were some sort of plastic caps on the wires just to make real sure that they don't contact each other or anything else conductive in there, but he seemed to not think that was necessary to worry about. At a minimum I will encase the wires in electrical tape or something. Hell, hot glue maybe? Just a glob to seal off the exposed bit of wire at the end? I just don't like them hanging out loose in there, low voltage or no. Bugs me.
(Edit after Googling - just learned of the existence of liquid electrical tape and silicon conformal coating, and will probably get some if only because I'm a bit obsessed with weird special purpose adhesives and compounds and stuffs and I do tons of improvised projects. Must understand such products! Never know when they'll be just right for something!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by harry chickpea
Without pics, there is no way to say for certain. Bathroom vent fans can sometimes be just appliances with a standard polarized AC plug and a socket that doesn't get changed out. Hardwired aren't that much different - usually. Ceiling fans are something that can vary more. two speed, three speed, remote, two way controls, three way controls, and so on. Capping the existing wires in three smoke detectors involves about 9 wire nuts and a screwdriver.
The price does seem high, but I don't live in a high cost area.
I have ALWAYS had issues with the code and wired fire alarms. I understand the intent, but the idea of requiring them NOT to have a circuit breaker or other means of closing off the circuit is insane to me. Make a special breaker box that costs a thousand bucks and a donation to the fire department to replace if you throw the breaker in it, have a "break glass to access" with a warning, fine. But to hardwire a circuit that runs all around a home or facility with no way to shut it off other than throwing the main (and with battery backup systems even that may not fully work)? Nuts. A plumbing leak makes a short circuit? Tough luck Charlie. That burning wire will continue to burn no matter how many breakers you flip, and if you happen to touch it, you get electrocuted. Dumb. Dumb. Dumb.
Yeah I dunno about the vent fans, we had a guy out some time ago (before my FIL passed on) to replace one and it took him quite a while. But that specific one had actually caught fire at one point and there was a bunch of melted plastic involved, it was a mess. Nasty. The others now, are just old, one of them is seized up...we don't use them, won't until they're replaced. Dude told me that I bought the exact same model for replacement that he would have bought. Go figure, the cheapest one at Lowe's. The ceiling fans are pretty basic. Fan, lights, good ol' pull chains. Just replacing really old ones that no longer work, but the wiring is good...dude said it looked like they bought indoor rated ones and installed them outside, and they did not hold up to the weather. I got some that said they were for outdoors, made sure the rod they hang from is the same length. Doesn't look like a big deal.
Sheesh, I didn't know that about the wired systems. That's crazy.
Last edited by Sonic_Spork; 10-31-2023 at 02:02 PM..
One factor against a system that automatically calls the fire department is some will charge you a fee or fine for false alarm calls. In our area that is $500 per false alarm. Our home is old and so we installed relatively cheap battery powered smoke alarms and a few combination alarms (smoke and carbon monoxide detectors). Cheap and easy DIY install and replace. I’ve learned they can go nearly 2 years before the low battery alert so I now change them once a year. A wired and connected system will sound ALL ALARMS if one goes into alarm. I’ve had one detector to bad or one activate because of cooking a roux for gumbo. Don’t want all alarms to sound. It could be handy feature for a large and well insulated home. A fire in a basement should activate other alarms, especially if it’s a 2 story home with basement. Our home is single story with no basement. Even with my hearing aids removed I can hear the alarm from one detector across the house.
One factor against a system that automatically calls the fire department is some will charge you a fee or fine for false alarm calls. In our area that is $500 per false alarm. Our home is old and so we installed relatively cheap battery powered smoke alarms and a few combination alarms (smoke and carbon monoxide detectors). Cheap and easy DIY install and replace. I’ve learned they can go nearly 2 years before the low battery alert so I now change them once a year. A wired and connected system will sound ALL ALARMS if one goes into alarm. I’ve had one detector to bad or one activate because of cooking a roux for gumbo. Don’t want all alarms to sound. It could be handy feature for a large and well insulated home. A fire in a basement should activate other alarms, especially if it’s a 2 story home with basement. Our home is single story with no basement. Even with my hearing aids removed I can hear the alarm from one detector across the house.
Yeah, I kinda just want the system to be simple so that I feel totally confident keeping up with testing and replacing units as needed and it just...works. I like that the battery powered set I bought comes with a remote control, that can test and silence the units. So if it goes off because I burned some toast, I can just push the button without getting on a ladder.
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