Non declining malls (Houston, Dallas, Austin: condo, movies, live)

[LocalPlanner]

Originally Posted by gwarnecke

I'd acknowledge that the boundaries between second- and third-tier malls are a bit fuzzy.

I'd put Memorial City and Baybrook ahead of First Colony Mall and The Woodlands Mall by virtue of their sizes and their ability to draw huge crowds from broad surrounding areas. This is probably as much of a function of the mall's location as it is the quality of the mall itself. For example - Baybrook Mall is pretty much the only strong mall anywhere on the SE side of Houston, whereas the Woodlands Mall is sandwiched between Willowbrook Mall and Deerbrook Mall on the N side. First Colony Mall does stand by itself on the SW side, but it is only a 15-20 minute drive from the Galleria outside of rush hour.

I generally consider The Woodlands Mall as what is defined as second-tier above. It still gets a heavy crowd of affluent shoppers - that's why it has a Nordstrom. Wealthy folks from NW Houston and the Lake Houston area seem to bypass their local malls to go to The Woodlands instead.

[LocalPlanner]

Any mall in a large metro market that catered mostly to the middle class is pretty much having a tough time these days. You have to be heavily oriented to upscale shoppers to make mall economics work now.

First, Walmart and Target plus other big box stores ("category killers" like Best Buy and Toys R Us) stole shoppers. Then, the Ross/TJ Maxx/Marshalls thing happened, and is still happening, and department stores can't compete against these discounters. Finally, e-commerce happened, which has been another nail in the coffin.

Understand that it's the in-line stores that pay the rent, not the department stores. The in-line stores relied on the department stores for publicity and traffic. Then, a number of the in-line stores got killed by the emergence of big-box (remember music stores, toy stores, bookstores, audio equipment stores, etc. etc. in the mall?). Then department stores started failing.

Even upscale malls are having to transform to remain successful. Adding better dining, entertainment, and mixing uses is becoming the go-to strategy. The Galleria is fortunate that it already had this setup.

[jerbear30]

I live across the highway from the Memorial City Mall, so that's where I usually go but I like Katy Mills a lot. As noted, it is an outlet, but it's a mall setup and it's nice, especially for kids. I certainly wouldn't call it "declining." It's been a few years since I've been to Willowbrook, but I like that one, too.

[mkwensky]

Originally Posted by LocalPlanner

Any mall in a large metro market that catered mostly to the middle class is pretty much having a tough time these days. You have to be heavily oriented to upscale shoppers to make mall economics work now.

First, Walmart and Target plus other big box stores ("category killers" like Best Buy and Toys R Us) stole shoppers. Then, the Ross/TJ Maxx/Marshalls thing happened, and is still happening, and department stores can't compete against these discounters. Finally, e-commerce happened, which has been another nail in the coffin.

Understand that it's the in-line stores that pay the rent, not the department stores. The in-line stores relied on the department stores for publicity and traffic. Then, a number of the in-line stores got killed by the emergence of big-box (remember music stores, toy stores, bookstores, audio equipment stores, etc. etc. in the mall?). Then department stores started failing.

Even upscale malls are having to transform to remain successful. Adding better dining, entertainment, and mixing uses is becoming the go-to strategy. The Galleria is fortunate that it already had this setup.

Are there malls in Austin or Dallas like Greenspoint and Northwest where the place manages to stay open despite having tons of vacancies, half full parking lots on the weekends and no mainstream fast food like McDonald's in the food court? I get that malls are sort of anachronistic in today's retail environment but why won't the low performing ones just close and let some developers build condos or something?

[LocalPlanner]

Originally Posted by mkwensky

Are there malls in Austin or Dallas like Greenspoint and Northwest where the place manages to stay open despite having tons of vacancies, half full parking lots on the weekends and no mainstream fast food like McDonald's in the food court? I get that malls are sort of anachronistic in today's retail environment but why won't the low performing ones just close and let some developers build condos or something?

I don't think there's any remaining "zombie malls" in Austin anymore - Highland Mall got turned into other stuff. Big Town Mall in Mesquite was torn down. I think Southwest Center Mall in South Dallas is a zombie mall. Valley View Mall on the north side - not sure if it's been fully torn down yet or not, but it was a zombie also. I think there may a zombie mall in Fort Worth? One of the malls in N. Richland Hills was demolished.

[LocalPlanner]

Originally Posted by LocalPlanner

I don't think there's any remaining "zombie malls" in Austin anymore - Highland Mall got turned into other stuff. Big Town Mall in Mesquite was torn down. I think Southwest Center Mall in South Dallas is a zombie mall. Valley View Mall on the north side - not sure if it's been fully torn down yet or not, but it was a zombie also. I think there may a zombie mall in Fort Worth? One of the malls in N. Richland Hills was demolished.

Also, malls are often complicated to purchase and redevelop due to multiple ownerships - the department stores often own their properties - and existing leases and related covenants. Plus, there has to be a viable alternate use available - in economically challenged areas, that might be tough to find.

[hbcu]

Willowbrook is in a great location and the crossroads for all demographics. Northline died and greenspoint is near death so willowbrook is the only mall experience they’ll need.

First Colony is like willlowbrook but has the small towns all the way to almost Victoria to pull from as that’s a field trip. Rosenberg has benefited from that also.

Galleria is a destination mall and Woodlands is good for that area.

Memorial City was on life support at one time but rebounded and put the death nail in northwest

[gwarnecke]

Originally Posted by mkwensky

Location wise Katy Mills and West Oaks seem to underperform by a lot. Other factors must be at work to account for their relative decrepitude.

Katy Mills catches a lot of flak, but to me it seems to be doing just fine for what it is (a large outlet mall). Certain corridors are livelier than others, but overall it is quite busy on evenings and weekends with a packed parking lot. We live partway between Memorial City Mall and Katy Mills, and each gets about 40% of our mall trips (with the Galleria getting the other 20%). I do wish they'd update the decor, much of which looks straight out of 1995.

West Oaks, on the other hand, is an unmitigated train wreck. They lost Macys in 2017, Sears in 2018, and have virtually nothing left to draw in shoppers. I think its downfall is a mix of several factors:

-The resurgence of Memorial City Mall and the growth of CityCenter and LaCenterra (I grant you that CityCenter and LaCenterra are more about dining and entertainment than shopping, but they still had an impact).
-Inconvenient location - probably the only mall in Houston that isn't freeway-adjacent.
-Strange demographics - the areas north and west (across the reservoir) are solidly middle-upper class, but the immediate surroundings are pretty grim.

[cBach]

The only zombie mall in Austin was Highland and it's now ACC Highland campus. They did a real nice job, in former Dillard's they "punched" holes through the concrete wall to add windows and thus light into the building. The structure was sturdy though.

The malls in Dallas are succeeding because they are adding features like Legoland, an Aquarium, etc... Even Austin added an Aquarium to a strip mall that was fading.

Houston could probably add a Legoland to one of its decaying malls to revitalize it.

The Cedar Park Mall in Austin features train rides, a bouncy house, and other "kid friendly" amenities. It seems malls have gone from being middle class high school hangouts to preschool party central.

If a mall can tailor to grade school and pre-school kids it will succeed because people want a climate controlled environment to bring their kids.

Adults now want to be able to shop or eat outdoors on nice days, bringing back the "main street" feel. Malls will never be for grownups anymore.

[LocalPlanner]

Originally Posted by gwarnecke

Katy Mills catches a lot of flak, but to me it seems to be doing just fine for what it is (a large outlet mall). Certain corridors are livelier than others, but overall it is quite busy on evenings and weekends with a packed parking lot. We live partway between Memorial City Mall and Katy Mills, and each gets about 40% of our mall trips (with the Galleria getting the other 20%). I do wish they'd update the decor, much of which looks straight out of 1995.

West Oaks, on the other hand, is an unmitigated train wreck. They lost Macys in 2017, Sears in 2018, and have virtually nothing left to draw in shoppers. I think its downfall is a mix of several factors:

-The resurgence of Memorial City Mall and the growth of CityCenter and LaCenterra (I grant you that CityCenter and LaCenterra are more about dining and entertainment than shopping, but they still had an impact).
-Inconvenient location - probably the only mall in Houston that isn't freeway-adjacent.
-Strange demographics - the areas north and west (across the reservoir) are solidly middle-upper class, but the immediate surroundings are pretty grim.

West Oaks isn't the only non-freeway-adjacent mall: the center formerly known as Pasadena Town Square isn't on one either, and of course it's hit the skids as well.

I wouldn't call West Oaks' immediate-area demographics "grim" apart from the fact that one-quarter of it has no people at all! Otherwise it's working and middle class - but malls serving that population are the ones in the most trouble.

First Colony Mall and the revitalized Memorial City had equally negative impacts on West Oaks - they both just easier for customers from the most affluent suburban areas to get to. Plus you have silly Katy moms who get too nervous when around shoppers of color / different languages, and quit coming, even though it was the most convenient mall for them (east Cinco Ranch / Kelliwood).