Finally get a real metro route and they're scaring folks already to be negative (Houston: mover, hotel)

[LocalPlanner]

Originally Posted by atmcclel

This is all well and fine, but if we really wanted to be a 21st century city, we'd just built this route as a light rail. But this is TX and while I'll never leave I'll just have to accept mass rail will never happen here.

You mean heavy rail like Atlanta has? There is no way it is remotely justified here.

[LocalPlanner]

The principal reason the Uptown BRT line exists is to provide the last-mile connection for suburban residents working in Uptown office buildings for whom most of the trip would be on the existing P&R lines, then they would transfer. The assumption was that such workers would be coming to the office 5 days per week, the office market would be healthy, and suburban freeway traffic would just keep getting worse and worse, incentivizing the P&R use. Uptown office property owners knew that their competitiveness hinged on being able to convince tenants that the commute from the outer suburbs (since their most valuable employees tend to live in places like Sugar Land, Cypress, etc. rather than the inner / middle suburbs) was not too painful. Downtown has relied on the P&R to serve that role for years, plus it reduced parking costs, which are also high in Uptown when buildings are relatively full.

Obviously many of those assumptions got dashed in the pandemic and the staying power of WFH. Most employees who come in once or twice a week from say, Cypress, are willing to endure whatever congestion they encounter since for them it's not a daily thing. This has impacted downtown P&R service too.

[ParaguaneroSwag]

Originally Posted by LocalPlanner

The principal reason the Uptown BRT line exists is to provide the last-mile connection for suburban residents working in Uptown office buildings for whom most of the trip would be on the existing P&R lines, then they would transfer. The assumption was that such workers would be coming to the office 5 days per week, the office market would be healthy, and suburban freeway traffic would just keep getting worse and worse, incentivizing the P&R use. Uptown office property owners knew that their competitiveness hinged on being able to convince tenants that the commute from the outer suburbs (since their most valuable employees tend to live in places like Sugar Land, Cypress, etc. rather than the inner / middle suburbs) was not too painful. Downtown has relied on the P&R to serve that role for years, plus it reduced parking costs, which are also high in Uptown when buildings are relatively full.

Obviously many of those assumptions got dashed in the pandemic and the staying power of WFH. Most employees who come in once or twice a week from say, Cypress, are willing to endure whatever congestion they encounter since for them it's not a daily thing. This has impacted downtown P&R service too.

I don't entirely disagree with you. I definitely believe this had something to do with it. I also believe when the Redline was originally launched, it had a similar function downtown.

But I don't believe that this was the long term vision of the Uptown BRT Line. More so, its a local focus while the long term plan is to connect to the entire system.

[DabOnEm]

Originally Posted by atmcclel

This is all well and fine, but if we really wanted to be a 21st century city, we'd just built this route as a light rail. But this is TX and while I'll never leave I'll just have to accept mass rail will never happen here.

Well Houston residents tried and voted for it, but local politicians like Tom Delay and John Culberson killed it. Same way the heavy rail plan residents voted for in the 80s was killed by Bob Lanier, who was afraid more intown development would affect his real estate interests along the current Grand Parkway (named after him on the Katy side of course). Politicians shouldn't be able to go against voter's wishes but those three did and it has negatively affected Houston.

Originally Posted by LocalPlanner

You mean heavy rail like Atlanta has? There is no way it is remotely justified here.

Atlanta has decent ridership, but it's main problem is it doesn't leave the 285 loop. If it did, ridership would be higher. Not to mention ATLiens deal with the same rail stopping politicians that Houston does. Besides, Houston is denser than Atlanta and the city layout would elevate ridership.

Originally Posted by ParaguaneroSwag

I don't entirely disagree with you. I definitely believe this had something to do with it. I also believe when the Redline was originally launched, it had a similar function downtown.

But I don't believe that this was the long term vision of the Uptown BRT Line. More so, its a local focus while the long term plan is to connect to the entire system.

The only reason why the Red Line launched like it did was because Delay and Culberson blocked federal funding that was awarded for it, so Metro paid out of pocket. The Uptown BRT line was supposed to be a heavy rail line in the 80s. In the 2004 transit plan voters approved, it was supposed to be a light rail line that branched off from the University line around Post Oak and continue north to the former Northwest Mall site (there was another rendering I remember where it was supposed to start at the Westpark TC where it would connect with the U-Line), allowing for a one seat ride from the Eastwood Transit Center to the Galleria. Imagine.

[oil capital]

Originally Posted by LocalPlanner

You mean heavy rail like Atlanta has? There is no way it is remotely justified here.

If it was justifiable in Atlanta, it would surely be justified in Houston.

[ParaguaneroSwag]

Originally Posted by DabOnEm

The only reason why the Red Line launched like it did was because Delay and Culberson blocked federal funding that was awarded for it, so Metro paid out of pocket. The Uptown BRT line was supposed to be a heavy rail line in the 80s. In the 2004 transit plan voters approved, it was supposed to be a light rail line that branched off from the University line around Post Oak and continue north to the former Northwest Mall site (there was another rendering I remember where it was supposed to start at the Westpark TC where it would connect with the U-Line), allowing for a one seat ride from the Eastwood Transit Center to the Galleria. Imagine.

Agreed. I was just disputing LP’s claim that the Uptown BRT line is specifically for last mile ridership within Uptown area employees. The long term goal of any transit line anywhere is overall connectivity.

[Watchful]

I lived in Atascocita when they had decided to extend METRO bus service through the neighborhood (2004).

Rep. Ted Poe (IIRC) was present for a town hall meeting and people were circulating scare tactics that home invasion teams would use the METRO to come to Atascocita during the day and ransack people's houses.

It wasn't too long and soon the bus was no more! I had visions of young marauders standing at the bus stop with big screen televisions (they weren't all flat back then) purloined from the houses in 77346.

[LocalPlanner]

Originally Posted by ParaguaneroSwag

I don't entirely disagree with you. I definitely believe this had something to do with it. I also believe when the Redline was originally launched, it had a similar function downtown.

But I don't believe that this was the long term vision of the Uptown BRT Line. More so, its a local focus while the long term plan is to connect to the entire system.

Well, I have knowledge from those directly involved in the inception of the concept (I won't elaborate any further on that), and commuter office workers coming from P&Rs were unquestionably the primary focus. While connections to a future University and/or Inner Katy corridor were definitely hoped for, they were secondary justifications / benefits. This was partly from a lack of faith that METRO would ever actually make those east-west corridors come to pass.

Same goes for connections to the 25 and 82 lines for local METRO riders - they recognized that it would especially help the low/moderate wage workers in restaurants, stores, and hotels, but that was very much secondary to the white collar commuters.

[LocalPlanner]

Originally Posted by ParaguaneroSwag

I also believe when the Redline was originally launched, it had a similar function downtown.

Also, and similarly because I dialogued with many of the folks who worked to bring the Red Line to fruition, connecting to P&R commuters was NOT a significant function of the Red Line. It was intended to very much be a local urban transit asset for people living / working / playing who were already in the Main Street Corridor and/or envisioned to do so in the future. You wouldn't believe how dense the corridor was expected to become by these folks in pretty short order after the Red Line would begin operation (dense merging of TMC with Downtown). It was really about a vision for Main Street more than anything. Of course the workers who commuted in would be able to take advantage of it once their P&R bus dropped them off, but that wasn't the core purpose.

[LocalPlanner]

Originally Posted by Watchful

I lived in Atascocita when they had decided to extend METRO bus service through the neighborhood (2004).

Rep. Ted Poe (IIRC) was present for a town hall meeting and people were circulating scare tactics that home invasion teams would use the METRO to come to Atascocita during the day and ransack people's houses.

It wasn't too long and soon the bus was no more! I had visions of young marauders standing at the bus stop with big screen televisions (they weren't all flat back then) purloined from the houses in 77346.

I was in a meeting this morning where the METRO board chair (he is unexpectedly charismatic) referenced public meetings that were part of the METRONext plan development. At one meeting in Spring, hundreds of folks showed up because they heard that METRO would plan for local bus service in their area, and they were hopping mad. Another board member opened the meeting by saying "METRO will not do local bus service in your area," and the room's air temperature immediately dropped several degrees because 90% of the meeting attendees immediately left.

Let's just say the quiet part out loud - these suburbanites don't really think that criminals will arrive and depart to conduct their illicit activities on the bus. What they really are scared of is that folks whose income is too limited to afford a car or truck for every worker in their household will find their neighborhood as an acceptable place to live because there's local bus service. And if there's anything that motivates these suburbanites, it's their desire to maintain income segregation. Threaten to remove it (especially in their schools!), and man they go apes__t.