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With such a notorious case, sequestering the jury is useless.
I just heard a wise lawyer say this: "I don't want someone who knows nothing about the case for a juror. I want someone who is alert and pays attention to what's being said and done in court."
I think that's what kind of jurors most lawyers would like to have for a jury. If someone knows about the case, that's not necessarily a bad thing if the person has an open mind about it and has not jumped to any conclusions.
With such a notorious case, sequestering the jury is useless.
I just heard a wise lawyer say this: "I don't want someone who knows nothing about the case for a juror. I want someone who is alert and pays attention to what's being said and done in court."
I think that's what kind of jurors most lawyers would like to have for a jury. If someone knows about the case, that's not necessarily a bad thing if the person has an open mind about it and has not jumped to any conclusions.
I agree 100%, besides with a case that’s been all over the news on a national level, one would be hard pressed to find someone who hasn’t heard about the case.
I’m actually surprised that Vallow was found with the mental competent to go through the trial.
Thanks for starting the thread. In a way it is unfair that Idaho has to carry the burden of trying those two murderous people since their residence in Idaho was so recent and brief-- but the fact that the two poor children's bodies were found in ID makes it inevitable, of course.
Is there a good refresher website that summarizes the case, so "new readers can start here"? Such a complex case. Everybody in Daybell's and Vallow's circle seemed to just drop dead....
Thanks for starting the thread. In a way it is unfair that Idaho has to carry the burden of trying those two murderous people since their residence in Idaho was so recent and brief-- but the fact that the two poor children's bodies were found in ID makes it inevitable, of course.
Is there a good refresher website that summarizes the case, so "new readers can start here"? Such a complex case. Everybody in Daybell's and Vallow's circle seemed to just drop dead....
You're not alone in your feelings. There was a lot of resentment down here directed at Lori Vallow at first. Everything happened in just under a month's time. Lori was always able to move fast like that. She also loved attention, so she was noticed by all her neighbors.
Chad Daybell had been living here for more than 5 years by then, and his appearance and speech is so mild mannered no one thought he could ever do such badness.
Chad's wife Tammy may have been better known. She was very active in the Rexburg community, but Chad was more a loner. He hung out at the city and college libraries a lot or stayed home.
Personally, I think Chad was the shot caller of everything and is the most responsible person for the kid's deaths.
I agree 100%, besides with a case that’s been all over the news on a national level, one would be hard pressed to find someone who hasn’t heard about the case.
I’m actually surprised that Vallow was found with the mental competent tIto go through the trial.
Yup. The Daybed/Vallow murders are pretty unique; 2 children with the same birth mother, 1 full brother to the mother, 1 (or more) of her husbands, and 1 of her last husband's wives, and at least 1 failed attempt at the mother's nephew-in-law. There may have been other attempts on other people.
Lori is a full-tilt narcissist. Typically, narcissists are totally indifferent of the emotions of other people, and are unable to recognize when someone else is in distress. A narcissist is completely involved in themselves alone, and they always feel they're alone. They copy everyone's emotions, but never feel them except for themselves.
Their ability to copy others gives them the skill to manipulate others to get what they need. The thing they always want the most of all is love, as they never actually feel any love at all. They never have any genuine self-esteem either, so they constantly seek other's approval to validate themselves.
But their genuine emotions are all concentrated on survival and personal success. They all tend to take on whatever good qualities they supposedly have from their friends and loved ones of that moment in their lives.
Narcissists never have deep long-lasting relationships with anyone as a general rule. They make friends easily, but the friendships always sour eventually, because they are good copycats but very selfish and needy at the same time.
So when Lori's friends were all normally good mothers, Lori became the best mother her friends ever knew. When her husband gave her everything she wanted, she was the best wife ever. Until her husbands started resenting her constant needs. A narcissist always wants more of other, normal, people than they can deliver.
As the other person in their lives begin to fail meeting a narcissist's needs, the needs escalate. They will want a better house or a better car or a better job. There's always a point where the mental condition creates a breaking point in all their relationships.
When the breaking point comes, the narcissist becomes obsessive. They want what they can't ever get even more, and sometimes, that leads to physical violence, but not always. Much of the time, they become stalkers, pests, who want to argue and yell, but not fight or kill.
I think Lori was also very impetuous. All narcissist are impetuous, but she is extremely so. They never care about the damage they create. Everyone is nothing but a cardboard cutout in their mind, never a real human being. They're the only human the recognize as such.
So I think Lori's mind simply refused to believe she had any responsibility at all for her kid's deaths. She may have actually believed they weren't dead- that they were just gone. Off somewhere, carried off by someone, but still alive and happy.
I think her rehab in the state hospital must have convinced her that her children were in fact, dead. So she couldn't use them as her excuse any longer. Since then, Lori has nothing left in her mind to protect her. So she is as silent as possible. She won't ever admit to a single thing.
And neither will Chad. He's a narcissist too, but has a different temperament. Chad never acts impulsively, but he plots constantly to get what he needs. So when he acts to get his needs fulfilled, his actions are always over-thought and more subtle than Lori's.
The difference in their narcissism is what attracted them to each other. She can instantly spring into action, and he can make all their best plans. And both are highly sexual in getting what they want.
If they were normal people, they really are about as close to a perfect couple as can be. But as a sick couple with such strong abilities, I think they were extraordinarily dangerous.
There were 3 narcissists involved in these murders; Alex Cox was one too. And he was an experienced killer.
3 of them, as a very tight group, all acting in support of each other, has to be a very rare thing. Narcissts are always completely and totally self-centered people who tend to act alone, or as a couple who are identical in their mental make-up. Killer couples are pretty common, but not threesomes.
They had only known each other intimately for a couple of months before people began dying. Alex never even met Chad until just a few days before Lori left Arizona, though it's possible Alex may have talked to Chad on the phone or something.
Looking at the timeline, I've often wondered how many other innocent folks in Arizona, Texas, and Idaho could have been murdered. For sure, JJs grandparents in Texas, the Woodcocks, would have been targeted, along with at least one of Lori's brothers or sisters.
Lori's pal in Arizona, Melanie Gibb, the woman who arranged Chad's and Lori's first meeting, was a target.
They always went after their greatest threat of the moment, and when they killed someone, it was always fast as sudden after the person was targeted. Charles Vallow was their only victim who knew he was a target.
God only knows who would have been the next to die. I tend to think that some of their extended family and members of their little cult- Lori's niece in Rexburg, or the guy who had fallen out of the cult- could have become targets. Idaho folks.
At least one of Chad's kids could have become targets. Alex's widow could have become a target. The leaders of other Utah cults. Friends and family in Rexburg, Utah, Texas and Hawaii.
Chad and Lori would have murdered anyone who they thought was an immediate threat, even after Alex died.
We were all very lucky the Woodcocks wanted JJ back so much. Their insistence and intensity spurred the Rexburg police into action that was much faster than a normal missing person's request usually gets. An even then, only one cop smelled a rat when they made their initial contact.
It's amazing to me how lethal that 3-way hookup was and how skillful they were.
Once the killing began, it escalated very quickly in two states hundreds of miles apart, all committed so randomly that making a connection to them all was close to impossible.
Each of the 3 was very adept at the roles they played, and each was very good at playing their role. All of them are/were very intelligent and deeply psychopathic.
So far, the Post-Register has a list of 20 persons who are involved in this case.
The list includes the victims and everyone except for Chad, Lori, and Alex. They all have been deposed or have other close involvement.
Two have the same name with different spellings. Only Chad and Lori know them all, but they all knew one of the pair; most of them are familial. But at the same time, their families appear to be innocent and were completely unaware of the couple's intentions and deeds.
The only potential persons who weren't potential victims I could see in the list are their lawyers past and present.
What chills me to the bone is I'm sure Tammy Daybell and the kids were all poisoned to death.
Poison is a murder method that is slower to detect and less suspicious a cause. Poisoners are harder to catch.
I'm sure they will become standard casework for every college course in criminality taught in the future.
For sure, the case couldn't ever be fictionalized and made into a good movie. The cast of characters is enormous, complicated, and is still growing.
But we'll all see what the real-life ending is. I'm sure the murders ended with their arrest.
Hey, CFF...
Since I couldn't find a good short summary, I wrote my own. I can't stop interjecting my own opinions, so take it for what it's worth. I've been keeping notes on this case for over a year because it's so unusual, lusty, twisted and complicated.
Eastern Idaho News has the most complete reportage, and they have a special section reserved for it on their website.
(Their reporters were actually there when some of the most important events came down, sometimes before the cops arrived.)
The reportage is sequential, with the latest events at the top. It's an all-day long read, but it reveals just about everything that's publicly known: https://www.eastidahonews.com/news/daybell/
I agree its unfair that Idaho should have to carry this legal burden, and our state now has a newer burden that's just as bad and as notorious.
Idaho 2023 is going to be a big year for true crime fans world wide. I don't anticipate the Moscow murders will be so slow in their grind through our courts, and Idaho will be the state to watch this year for true crime stories for sure.
Maybe after enough folks get to see that our justice system here is both as sophisticated and as expert as they are in other states, people will stop thinking Idaho is so backward and naive to the ways of the world as they think we are.
That's cold comfort for the tragedies though. So many beautiful young people, killed before they ever reached full flower, deeply saddens me.
Last edited by banjomike; 01-25-2023 at 05:33 PM..
Here's as short a timeline on all the murders as I could find.
This was copied as part of the EIN's timeline.
I Included the pre-2019 stuff as general info.
Very basically, the Daybells began justifying their deeds to their cult a year before the last killings occurred, in October, 2018.
They began on July 11, 2019 in Chandler, Arizona with the shooting of Charles Vallow.
By the end of August, Lori abandoned Arizona and moved to Idaho. This 30-day gap is the longest period of no murders in the timeline before the Daybells were arrested.
JJ and Tylee both died on September 8.
Tammy Daybell died on September 9.
They couple married in Hawaii on Nov. 7.
The Rexburg police were sent for a welfare check on November 26. They came back with a warrant the next day and found everyone gone.
Alex Cox died on December 12. His was the last death.
All the other details in this timeline connect the deaths and the major events that happened before and afterward.
Essentially, 4 innocents died in 3 different scenarios in 2 states over 3 days that covered a 3-month total time span. During those 3 months, the Daybells were either moving around or killing people, including the hitman Alex.
Alex's death was coincidental, but probably hastened, by the killings. He was not a well man at any time, but never knew his heart was as bad as it was. He just knew he was ill, as did they all.
At least one person escaped death because the attempt failed.
Alex attempted to shoot Tammy Daybell, but that attempt also failed.
Things the timeline doesn't say:
I think if the Woodcocks had called only one day later, the Daybells may have never been captured.
Lori had already purchased the tickets to Hawaii, and the couple was already in Hawaii on the first day the police came for a welfare check.
For more than a month, they could have escaped capture pretty easily.
And after Tammy died, there was nothing that held them to Rexburg any longer except money and appearances.
It took the some of the month of October for Chad to bury his first wife, prepare to marry his second wife, console his kids and his cult, and collect the insurance money.
Keeping up the appearance of normality slowed them down, but everything was done and ready by the first of November.
Pre-2019
* Chad and Tammy Daybell married on March 9, 1990, in Manti, Utah, according to her obituary. The couple lived in Springville, Utah, where they founded Spring Creek Book Company, through which Chad published many of his books. The couple had five children before moving to their home in Salem, Idaho, in 2015. Tammy worked as a school librarian.
* In 2006, marriage records show Lori Ryan married her fourth husband, Charles Vallow. Lori entered the marriage with her son, Colby, and Tylee, the daughter with her third husband, Joseph Ryan Jr. Family members say in 2014, Charles and Lori adopted Joshua “JJ” Vallow. He is the biological grandson of Charles’ sister Kay Woodcock, who is married to Larry Woodcock.
* Almost one year before the public announcement of the cases, Chad and Lori made their first appearance together on the Preparing a People podcast “Time to Warrior Up.” The two appeared with others on several of the podcasts – many focused on the end of the world. Preparing a People has since removed the podcast and publicly dissociated itself from the couple.
* A felony indictment indicates that on Oct. 26, 2018, Lori and Chad began discussing their religious beliefs to justify killing Tammy, JJ and Tylee. The couple is believed to have met around this time at a religious conference in St. George, Utah .
2019
* Charles files for divorce from Lori in February. He claims she views herself as a god preparing for the second coming of Christ, according to court documents. Charles claims his wife would kill him if he got in her way to perform her mission. Divorce proceedings are later stopped after Charles says he wants to make the marriage work.
* Around June, Lori’s niece, Melani Boudreaux, and her husband, Brandon Boudreaux, decide to get a divorce,as first reported by Fox13 Salt Lake City. Brandon claims Melani affiliated herself with similar beliefs as her aunt and joined “a cult.”
* On July 11, Lori’s brother, Alex Cox, shoots and kills Charles. Alex says the shooting was in self-defense. By the end of August, Lori, Tylee, JJ, Alex and Melani move to Rexburg, Idaho.
* Just days after Charles is killed, Chad sends multiple texts to Lori in what investigators call a
“romance novel.” Chad, who is still married to Tammy, describes in detail a sexual relationship between James and Elena, the names he reportedly uses to substitute for himself and Lori.
* On Sept. 8, Tylee, JJ, Lori and Alex visit Yellowstone National Park. Officials say this is the last time anyone saw Tylee alive. The FBI later asks for help from anyone who may have photos of the family taken that day in the park.
* Chad signs an application with Tammy on Sept. 8 to increase her life insurance to the maximum amount allowed on the policy.
* On Sept. 9, phone records place Alex on Chad’s property in the general area where investigators would eventually find Tylee’s remains. That same day, Chad allegedly texts Tammy saying he shot a raccoon and buried it in their pet cemetery.
* On Oct. 1, Lori rents a 10×10 storage unit from Self Storage Plus in Rexburg. Surveillance video at the facility, exclusively obtained by EastIdahoNews.com, shows Lori and a man visiting the unit nine times in October and once in November. Often the man, who appears to be Alex, comes alone. Another visit shows Alex and a man who appears to be Chad. During one visit, Chad and Lori visit the storage facility together.
* On Oct. 2, Brandon returns from the gym to his Arizona home when he says he was shot at with the bullet missing his head by inches. Arizona Central reports the shooter was driving a Jeep registered to then-dead Charles Vallow. That same day, Lori purchases a wedding ring on Amazon, later seen on her finger at her beach wedding with Chad.
* On Oct. 9, Tammy calls 911 and says a masked man shot at her in her driveway with a paintball gun. She posts about the experience on Facebook, saying she has no idea who the person was or why they would shoot at her. Court documents later indicate Alex attempted to shoot and kill Tammy that day.
* Ten days later, Chad calls 911 and says Tammy died in her sleep at their Salem home. Detectives visit the home and investigators originally rule the death as natural. The coroner does not perform an autopsy. Tammy is buried at the Evergreen Cemetary in Springville on Oct. 22.. The family holds a memorial service in Rexburg the following day.
* Two weeks after Tammy’s death, Chad and Lori are married in Hawaii on Nov. 5. They then return to Rexburg. Over the coming weeks, police say Chad told witnesses that Lori had no minor children. Police also say Lori told people Tylee died years earlier.
* On Nov. 26, the Rexburg Police Department conducts a welfare check for JJ at the request of his grandparents, Larry and Kay Woodcock. They had not spoken with the boy in months. JJ is not at the townhome on Pioneer Road and Lori tells police her son was with her friend, Melanie Gibb, in Arizona. Police soon determine that JJ was not with Melanie.
* The next morning, Nov. 27, the Rexburg Police Department serves a search warrant. When officers arrive, Chad and Lori are gone.
* Court documents indicate that on Dec. 1, Chad and Lori catch an American Airlines flight to Lihue, Hawaii. The children are not with their parents.
* On Dec. 6, Melanie Gibb contacts the Rexburg Police Department to say that Chad and Lori called her on Nov. 26 and asked her to lie about the location of JJ.
* As deputies investigate, the Fremont County Sheriff’s Office determines Tammy Daybell’s death is “suspicious.” Tammy’s body is exhumed on Dec. 11 and an autopsy is performed in Utah. The results of the autopsy are not released.
* On Dec. 12, Alex suddenly dies in Gilbert, Arizona at age 51. In a police interview months after his death, Alex’s wife Zulema Patenas spoke with officers. She said that a few days before Alex died, he told her that if anything happened to him, there was money in a bag for her hidden in a closet.
* On Dec. 20, the Rexburg Police Department announces JJ and Tylee are missing. Police say their disappearance is possibly linked to the suspicious death of Tammy. The following day, police call Chad and Lori “persons of interest.”
After December 20, the Daybells were captured in Hawaii and Lori was arrested. Chad followed back to Idaho as a free person, but was arrested the following June, 2020, after the children's bodies were found.
Thanks so much for bringing structure to that horrible story, Mike. It's good to have a "mental map" when the trial unfolds/more news trickles in. As I became reacquainted with the story, it's just left me feeling depressed. There are people in this world who will murder their innocent children because of superstition. And then there are of course also people who will murder as many strangers as they can (like in Monterey Park) for whatever unfathomable reason. Or knife college students to death just to prove how smart they are. Etc. Etc. It's good to remember that we hear the news of these kinds of stories precisely because they are aberrations. I still believe that most people are good and decent human beings...
Back to the subject: I found out that Netflix has been running a series on Vallow and Daybell, The Sins of Our Mother (which is a really weird title), so I was watching the first episode this evening. It's a good companion piece to Banjomike's analyses and timelines--if you can stand watching it.
Lori Vallow Daybell has now spent over 1,169 days in jail without having a jury trial. That's over 3 full years since her arrest and a full year since her arraignment.
By the Constitution's limits and Idaho code, a trial date must be set within 6 months after arraignment. Lori never waived her rights to a speedy trial.
That length of time qualifies her for a writ of habeas corpus, and from what I understand, that writ may be powerful enough to force a judge to dismiss the charges against her.
At the same time, Chad Daybell's attorney is strongly pushing for the case against him to be separated from the case Lori is charged with. There are differences in their individual charges, and Lori's lawyers have attempted to separate hers from Chad's earlier, but Chad is trying now for his first time.
All this is jeopardizing their trial. And possibly, the state's ability to keep them in jail until they're tried.
Since a good part of that time Lori spent in the state mental hospital undergoing a court ordered attempt to return her to mental competency, I'm left with some confused questions:
What was her legal status during that time? Was she a formally charged prisoner, or an involuntarily committed mental patient? Or neither?
Does her competency have any bearing on her marriage's status? If she was legally insane at that time, is her marriage legal?
If it is, Lori couldn't be compelled to testify against Chad or vice versa. If the marriage is invalid now, then is there a time when she wasn't incompetent in the time frame of the killings? Remember that they got married in Hawaii less than 2 weeks after the children died. Is marrying a legally incompetent woman a legal marriage?
Why does Chad want to be separated now? Chad remained free for about 6 months after Lori was arrested. It seems to me that he's close to reaching the time when he could qualify for a habeas corpus petition.
Or something else. There has to be something that appears to be some advantage for Chad in this. So why did he wait so long?
They were scheduled to go to court on April 4. Over 9 weeks away. That could be too long to meet the standards of a speedy trial's time limits.
If so, then can a sooner date be set? That might be impossible if the courthouse schedule is booked solid and no one is willing to have their case postponed. The trial is expected to take 10 weeks to try. That's over 2 months.
It's a mess.
Last edited by banjomike; 02-04-2023 at 02:37 AM..
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