Should the police be able to... (legal, Mexican, racism, citizenship)
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Can you tell that someone is illegal just by looking at them? How is law enforcement going to select the people for the ID checks? You have to establish some kind of criteria.
Possibly if LE sees the loiterers contacting shoppers as they are leaving the store. You do know that it is against the law for citizens to work and be paid under the table too, right? It's this whole business about paying taxes and such.
Possibly if LE sees the loiterers contacting shoppers as they are leaving the store. You do know that it is against the law for citizens to work and be paid under the table too, right? It's this whole business about paying taxes and such.
I don't think that people talking to each other is going to pass constitutional muster as establishing suspicion for a search. You have to be able to come up with some search criteria that doesn't run afoul of the constitution and established case law precedent.
Weaving and crossing center line - OK to detain and search for possible DUI
Driving above posted speed limit - OK to detain, request driver's license and issue citation
Seeing two people talking to each other in a Home Depot parking lot and using that as pretext for ID check - Major issues of constitutionality on several grounds
Are the cops going to ask everyone that is in a Home Depot parking lot for ID? If not, how will they pick and choose? What criteria do you expect law enforcement to use when they select people for a random search?
No, police would question those loitering in the parking lot, sitting on crates, while they wait to be picked up by illegal employers. It is very easy to distinguish between shoppers and so-called day laborers. C’mon, have you actually not passed a Home Depot and seen 25-40 men waiting in the parking lot for work?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sco
Can you tell that someone is illegal just by looking at them? How is law enforcement going to select the people for the ID checks? You have to establish some kind of criteria.
No, I cannot look at a person and determine with absolute certainty that they’re an illegal alien. Although some claim they can by their demeanor. Nor can police assume a person is a drug dealer or user without first investigating. That is, unless they witness illegal activity.
Should we ignore illegal immigration, or assume that those soliciting work from Home Depot parking lots are all here legally? Should we not enforce our immigration laws simply because the majority of illegals are Hispanic? How would you suggest we tackle this problem?
I don't think that people talking to each other is going to pass constitutional muster as establishing suspicion for a search. You have to be able to come up with some search criteria that doesn't run afoul of the constitution and established case law precedent.
Weaving and crossing center line - OK to detain and search for possible DUI
Driving above posted speed limit - OK to detain, request driver's license and issue citation
Seeing two people talking to each other in a Home Depot parking lot and using that as pretext for ID check - Major issues of constitutionality on several grounds
This isn’t an issue of two or three people talking in a parking lot. Their numbers are much greater than that. And, it’s quite evident they are not shoppers. Shoppers are not loitering in the parking lot for hours as they wait for work. Nor are they following patrons to their cars.
I don't think that people talking to each other is going to pass constitutional muster as establishing suspicion for a search. You have to be able to come up with some search criteria that doesn't run afoul of the constitution and established case law precedent.
Weaving and crossing center line - OK to detain and search for possible DUI
Driving above posted speed limit - OK to detain, request driver's license and issue citation
Seeing two people talking to each other in a Home Depot parking lot and using that as pretext for ID check - Major issues of constitutionality on several grounds
I don't foresee cops checking ID's in the Home Depot parking lot. I could imagine a scenario where they may watch those people for traffic violations like they do with DUI's.
I can also see using undercover operations if the situation was out of hand.
But cops really do have numerous infractions of the law that they are trying to enforce. I see no reason for them to be hawkish on certain laws. If someone is here illegally, they will be caught just like any citizen is. It will be because of a suspicious activity that will give the cop a good bust that can be prosecuted.
I don't foresee cops checking ID's in the Home Depot parking lot. I could imagine a scenario where they may watch those people for traffic violations like they do with DUI's.
I can also see using undercover operations if the situation was out of hand.
But cops really do have numerous infractions of the law that they are trying to enforce. I see no reason for them to be hawkish on certain laws. If someone is here illegally, they will be caught just like any citizen is. It will be because of a suspicious activity that will give the cop a good bust that can be prosecuted.
I agree, I just think there is a way to enforce the immigration laws without trashing the constitution in the process. I also don't want to give the government that type of authority trusting them to only use it to find illegal immigrants. If the cops see them committing a crime, that is the time to check their status and deport if necessary. Giving cops the power to ask any person at any time for their papers is dangerous and a path that we shouldn't go down.
Not only that but even when I am only a passenger in a car I carry my I.D. What if the driver has an accident? How will I be identified if I don't have I.D. on me? Especially, if both the driver and myself are seriously injured and neither one of us can communicate as to who I am and to be able to notify my family of the accident.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar
I don’t leave the house without ID, unless I’m working in the yard. As you said, anything can happen. You could be jogging and get hit by a car, or have a heart attack or stroke and die. I don’t want my family to be frantic, not knowing where I am, or if I’m dead or alive. Nor would I want my body to be lying in a morgue as Jane Doe. Even when my son was in kindergarten he had a photo ID pinned to the inside of his pocket. It’s stupid for anyone to walk around without a form of identification.
So carry your ID, and realize that is your personal choice irrespective of any law...
So carry your ID, and realize that is your personal choice irrespective of any law...
Isn't that what Benicar and myself said? What would have been better if you had have given us some credit for using common sense and admitted that it is just common sense for everyone to do that regardless that the law doesn't require it but you just couldn't bring yourself to do that, could you?
Isn't that what Benicar and myself said? What would have been better if you had have given us some credit for using common sense and admitted that it is just common sense for everyone to do that regardless that the law doesn't require it but you just couldn't bring yourself to do that, could you?
Common sense is sometimes uncommon...
I raise the point, because a couple years ago I had a debate with a Tea Party couple on the issue of Arizona SB1070. My opening position was to show them the Residency Card of my 9 year-old, and ask them why she wasn't in violation of carrying it with her (she wasn't there with me). After learning that a minor is not mandated to carry it under Federal law, they still maintained she should have it, because their own Granddaughter carried her (Grade School) "Student ID" with her!
We got to the point of my eldest stepdaughter, having a driver's license but not yet 18. They said she should carry her Residency Card nonetheless, because it "could help if there was an accident". When I countered that a Residency Card does not have a human-readable home address or next-of-kin data it still didn't make any difference to them. Nor did they understand that with her driver's license alone, she had the same ID that was adequate for them while driving.
Like many, the couple just wanted all them "Mexicans" able to be identified as Mexicans (no matter what they were doing), even if it didn't have a practical purpose...
I raise the point, because a couple years ago I had a debate with a Tea Party couple on the issue of Arizona SB1070. My opening position was to show them the Residency Card of my 9 year-old, and ask them why she wasn't in violation of carrying it with her (she wasn't there with me). After learning that a minor is not mandated to carry it under Federal law, they still maintained she should have it, because their own Granddaughter carried her (Grade School) "Student ID" with her!
We got to the point of my eldest stepdaughter, having a driver's license but not yet 18. They said she should carry her Residency Card nonetheless, because it "could help if there was an accident". When I countered that a Residency Card does not have a human-readable home address or next-of-kin data it still didn't make any difference to them. Nor did they understand that with her driver's license alone, she had the same ID that was adequate for them while driving.
Like many, the couple just wanted all them "Mexicans" able to be identified as Mexicans (no matter what they were doing), even if it didn't have a practical purpose...
I had my son fingerprinted and photographed at a local health fair, and his school made photo IDs for all students on an annual basis beginning in kindergarten. Again, common sense. I’m not sure why you wouldn’t want your children to be identified, especially if they were walking home from school or playing outdoors, and had the misfortune of being hit by a car, or abducted by a predator.
Heck, most pet owners tag their dogs so they can be identified. In fact, our dear dog was lost, and safely returned, simply because the person who found her was able to contact the vet, who then contacted us. But, to each his/her own.
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