libertarian vs anti-illegal immigration (green card, Ron Paul, medical, health care)
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Note that this is not a troll post. I hope not to get "you are an idiot" posts because I'm asking an honest question and not leading people one way or another.
I am residing in Alabama and the law has brought up some issues with me.
I see a tension between someone that declares themselves a libertarian vs anti-illegal immigration. A libertarian would seem to want minimal government interference, even in security matters for fear of an authoritarian police state. Libertarian-thinking people, and most Republicans in general (not the same I know) would find things like a national ID abhorrent. They would seemingly also be against any sort of way for the government to track or monitor people. However, this is essentially what being strict on illegal immigration requires. You are supporting checking people's documents and requiring them to carry them around at all times. Thus, you are essentially requiring everyone to carry documents, given that everyone could be accused of illegal immigration. I see little difference between this and just requiring a national ID.
In addition, you are restricting freedom of movement and labor. One would think a true libertarian believes a government not intrude on what are seen as these inalienable rights. This is why libertarians would be anti-union and anti-minimum wage, anti-settlement and building codes, etc... If you have the money to buy something, you should be able to buy it. If you want to move somewhere you should be able to do it. If you want to sell your labor cheaper than another, you should be able to do this. This is the free market at work. Illegal immigrants are essentially scabs, entering a contract with an employer around the existing establishment, be it the government or the union rules.
Again, I am looking for your honest logic and not meaning to provoke anyone into anger.
Note that this is not a troll post. I hope not to get "you are an idiot" posts because I'm asking an honest question and not leading people one way or another.
I am residing in Alabama and the law has brought up some issues with me.
I see a tension between someone that declares themselves a libertarian vs anti-illegal immigration. A libertarian would seem to want minimal government interference, even in security matters for fear of an authoritarian police state. Libertarian-thinking people, and most Republicans in general (not the same I know) would find things like a national ID abhorrent. They would seemingly also be against any sort of way for the government to track or monitor people. However, this is essentially what being strict on illegal immigration requires. You are supporting checking people's documents and requiring them to carry them around at all times. Thus, you are essentially requiring everyone to carry documents, given that everyone could be accused of illegal immigration. I see little difference between this and just requiring a national ID.
In addition, you are restricting freedom of movement and labor. One would think a true libertarian believes a government not intrude on what are seen as these inalienable rights. This is why libertarians would be anti-union and anti-minimum wage, anti-settlement and building codes, etc... If you have the money to buy something, you should be able to buy it. If you want to move somewhere you should be able to do it. If you want to sell your labor cheaper than another, you should be able to do this. This is the free market at work. Illegal immigrants are essentially scabs, entering a contract with an employer around the existing establishment, be it the government or the union rules.
Again, I am looking for your honest logic and not meaning to provoke anyone into anger.
Those opposed to illegal immigrations are automatically oppessed to libertarianism.
It is inherent. And the those opposed are generally willing to sacrifice any number of things on the privacy, personal rights, security side to get at the illegals.
Those opposed to illegal immigrations are automatically oppessed to libertarianism.
It is inherent. And the those opposed are generally willing to sacrifice any number of things on the privacy, personal rights, security side to get at the illegals.
The pro-illegal side is one arguing for sacrifice. They're willing to sacrifice our schools, our hospitals, our road safety, our national identity as a nation of English speakers and our own poor and working class so they pander to the hispanic lobby and feel good about themselves for being so enlightened.
If schools in the inner city are more overcrowded they don't care. If the safety of communities is threatened by illegal criminals who break any laws they want they don't care. If people are the victims of hit and run accidents by unlicensed drivers who haven't been vetted and flee the scene without paying for the damage they cause they don't care. If hospitals serving the poor close because illegals are too cheap to pay even the small cost of medical care in Mexico they don't care.
Illegals threaten our privacy because they willfully steal our social security numbers as they could not work otherwise. They threaten our personal rights as we become a less free society as we have to fear neighbors who don't speak English and have no committment to the community as a whole because they are just transients. They threaten our security as we have no idea who is here and under what circumstances.
I would think a libertarian would be against importing such people here.
Libertarian-thinking people, and most Republicans in general (not the same I know) would find things like a national ID abhorrent.
We already have a national ID of sorts, a US Passport.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebeard
They would seemingly also be against any sort of way for the government to track or monitor people. However, this is essentially what being strict on illegal immigration requires. You are supporting checking people's documents and requiring them to carry them around at all times. Thus, you are essentially requiring everyone to carry documents, given that everyone could be accused of illegal immigration. I see little difference between this and just requiring a national ID.
It is actually the States that require an ID on a person who is a citizen or legal resident of said State, not the Federal Government, as they only require immigrants to carry certain documents and forms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebeard
In addition, you are restricting freedom of movement and labor.
This is the difference between a Libertarian and a Classic Liberal, Libertarians are globalists while Classic Liberals are nationalists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebeard
One would think a true libertarian believes a government not intrude on what are seen as these inalienable rights.
What are you defining as unalienable rights?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebeard
This is why libertarians would be anti-union and anti-minimum wage, anti-settlement and building codes, etc... If you have the money to buy something, you should be able to buy it. If you want to move somewhere you should be able to do it. If you want to sell your labor cheaper than another, you should be able to do this. This is the free market at work.
If you have the money to buy something, what is stopping someone from doing so? Whats stopping a person from moving from one state to another? If one wishes to move to another nation, they must attain the permission of the other nation and accept their form of Government. You can sell your labor for whatever you choose, you only need a contract of agreement between the employee and the employer, both in agreement. Minimum wage is only a requirement when there is no contract of agreement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebeard
Illegal immigrants are essentially scabs, entering a contract with an employer around the existing establishment, be it the government or the union rules.
We already have a national ID of sorts, a US Passport.
It is actually the States that require an ID on a person who is a citizen or legal resident of said State, not the Federal Government, as they only require immigrants to carry certain documents and forms.
This is the difference between a Libertarian and a Classic Liberal, Libertarians are globalists while Classic Liberals are nationalists.
What are you defining as unalienable rights?
If you have the money to buy something, what is stopping someone from doing so? Whats stopping a person from moving from one state to another? If one wishes to move to another nation, they must attain the permission of the other nation and accept their form of Government. You can sell your labor for whatever you choose, you only need a contract of agreement between the employee and the employer, both in agreement. Minimum wage is only a requirement when there is no contract of agreement.
So you aren't a Libertarian?
So what about the other 80% that don't have a passport? Deportable?
So what about the other 80% that don't have a passport? Deportable?
I hope you know that all LEGAL immigrants over 18 MUST carry their Green Card on them at ALL times.
IDs/Drivers Licences should only be for legal residents and US citizens but unfortunately that is not the case in some states. I still think a National ID card would not be a bad idea. I have one from the other country where I am also a citizen of (because of my father) though it says I was born in Mass.
So what about the other 80% that don't have a passport? Deportable?
The number you refer to is closer to 55%, not 80% (45% of US Citizens have a US Passport - keep in mind not all 310,000,000 people residing here are US Citizens). Why would they be deportable? they can show there citizenship status with a number of specific documents, their parents Status, etc, a number of ways that can confirm citizenship. Even the BCA requires proof of citizenship to obtain the US Passport.
Well for one even Ron Paul apparently intends to keep the welfare programs as do most libertarians it seems.
So that right there means an acceptance of very powerful government. And as the illegals pour over the libertarian open borders, nothing stops them from marching on into the free public schools, the free public hospitals, getting their free food stamps and voting in our elections -- after they destroyed their own democratic country and can no longer live in it, they can come do the same for ours. They can vote for the big government they very much prefer -- but a government that provides them bigger wages and bigger food stamps and all the taxpayer handouts they desire.
The fact that most liberatarians want to allow unlimited numbers of people to come over the border, work for dirt wages and drive down wages so that both they and the unemployed Americans require food stamps, Medicaid, WIC, free housing and more big government, is why I won't likely vote for a libertarian.
Those opposed to illegal immigrations are automatically oppessed to libertarianism.
It is inherent. And the those opposed are generally willing to sacrifice any number of things on the privacy, personal rights, security side to get at the illegals.
Yes and the libertarians are fine with allowing unlimited and very massive third world poverty which most definitely demands and requires massive amounts of Medicaid for their health care, massive amounts of government assistance in every portion of their lives. Illegals aren't coming for freedom and small government, they very much prefer big government just like they are now demanding taxpayer money for college.
Your big government giving illegals more rights than citizens, requires enormous tax dollars and enormous government debt to support the needs of the illegals.
No illegal obtains private health insurance, yet every illegal believes it is his or her right to have nothing but the finest taxpayer provided health care. And education, and housing assistance.
And the libertarians seem fine with unemployed Americans because that's just want massive immigration and the global trade deals is accomplishing. That just makes more people who want more big government to support them and provide for them. Libertarians are self-defeating - they want exactly that which leads to bigger government. They want what destroys our freedom.
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