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The other point about the word 'Gringo' is understandable from both sides, as macmeal says it's not offensive in Mexico, from this distance (on the other side of the pond) I would take a guess that the illegal quality of the immigrants might prevent them going to classes for an explanation of cultural differences, assuming such things are provided, and this could lead to the ignorance that is giving rise to Americans taking an unintended insult and maybe reciprocating and this building up into a new cultural split, shame really.
I hope this does not sound like preaching just throwing it up for ideas.
I know I am always a little confused when I hear people say we shouldn't be insulted by the use of the word "Gringo" because I have asked a few of my hispanic friends if one should be insulted or not, and they were very clear about the negative connotation of the word. They said calling an American caucasian a "Gringo" is like calling an African American the "n" word. In other words, DEFINITELY an insult. They feel hispanics who insist it is not an insult are just saying that so they can get away with using it.
I know I am always a little confused when I hear people say we shouldn't be insulted by the use of the word "Gringo" because I have asked a few of my hispanic friends if one should be insulted or not, and they were very clear about the negative connotation of the word. They said calling an American caucasian a "Gringo" is like calling an African American the "n" word. In other words, DEFINITELY an insult. They feel hispanics who insist it is not an insult are just saying that so they can get away with using it.
Annie, I'm assuming your Hispanic friends are either Americans or have live here a long time. I'll repeat that, in my experience, among "Mexican" Mexicans, "gringo" is just another descriptive word. It can sound offensive to "outsiders", because, obviously, there are cultural differnces (something I talk about all the time).
The fact is that in Mexico,, people (males especially) routinely call each
other "chubby", "skinny", "dark", "light","short","blondie", or "blackie" and all manner of very "familiar" nicknames that would be totally inappropriate here in the US. The closest thing we might have here is in an all-male boot camp or ball team or something of the sort. Normally, in Anglo-America, we just don't "do" nicknames until we are VERY familiar with people. "Shorty" or "Red" may be used, but you better be VERY GOOD friends first.
Not so in Mexico. This, I think, illustrates the "incompatibility" of cultures. As you say, this behavior COULD be seen as rude and offensive---and it IS, here. And that's why I've always said, "culture" is everything. It makes huge difference in our ability to "get along". Our US culture deserves as much respect as any other---and that's not happening today.
Annie, I'm assuming your Hispanic friends are either Americans or have live here a long time. I'll repeat that, in my experience, among "Mexican" Mexicans, "gringo" is just another descriptive word. It can sound offensive to "outsiders", because, obviously, there are cultural differnces (something I talk about all the time).
The fact is that in Mexico,, people (males especially) routinely call each
other "chubby", "skinny", "dark", "light","short","blondie", or "blackie" and all manner of very "familiar" nicknames that would be totally inappropriate here in the US. The closest thing we might have here is in an all-male boot camp or ball team or something of the sort. Normally, in Anglo-America, we just don't "do" nicknames until we are VERY familiar with people. "Shorty" or "Red" may be used, but you better be VERY GOOD friends first.
Not so in Mexico. This, I think, illustrates the "incompatibility" of cultures. As you say, this behavior COULD be seen as rude and offensive---and it IS, here. And that's why I've always said, "culture" is everything. It makes huge difference in our ability to "get along". Our US culture deserves as much respect as any other---and that's not happening today.
Thank you macmeal ~
Actually the first person I asked about it has been here for about 12 years now, not sure if that would be considered long or not. She was asking me about words she heard directed at her and wanted to know if I thought she should be insulted (she is here legally and speaks English quite fluently but as with many English language learners is not clear on many slang words), so then I asked her about a few words I had heard generally used to describe people and that happened to be one of them. But the other two people I asked HAVE been here nearly all their lives (about 30 years). I think I'll just choose NOT to be insulted when that word is used. Thank you so much for the clarity. I hope you have a wonderful evening and weekend.
Annie
No one, regardless of his ethnicity, will have the "luxury" of being monolingual.
Wow. Someone on these boards finally said it. No one will have the luxury of being monolingual.
I see more and more jobs only open to people who are TRIlingual, not bilingual. This will put additional pressures on people to know a variety of languages.
I had a neighbor once whose sister was a translator for the United Nations in New York City. She spoke something like 7 languages fluently. I was impressed at the time but, as time goes by, I can see where knowing more languages is going to be important for more people.
new mexico has been in existance for nearly one hundred years, and by the way a state of the union of america....why should we not have english as the common language? i'm not saying that english only in their home...but engliash as a common language...seems logical to me.
on the subject of americans learning other languages, if i were to visit spain, or mexico or, france, or germany, i would definetly learn the common language to communicate...and if i chose to live there and was welcomed, because i would ask for permission, i would absolutely learn the language fluently.
Well, New Mexico has been around longer than a hundred years. We didn't invent it. We just bought it. I never said there was anything wrong with English being spoken in New Mexico. I don't live in New Mexico!
Over the history of New Mexico, however, Spanish has been common and accepted. What if, tomorrow, we bought a section of Mexico (where people were already living), and made it a part of the union, all while people are living and working there. Over time, Americans move down there since, after all, it's part of America now. Most of them are pretty live-and-let-live about English, since they're the outsiders. The state keeps, not takes, Spanish as an accepted language. Who would we be to tell them that's not ok?
That's exactly the case with New Mexico. Same story I just told.
Besides, my post was in reference to a poster's comments about families living in New Mexico for 'hundreds of years' and never bothering to learn English. My whole thing is that they aren't the ones that changed. The world changed around them. They didn't move anywhere. If they want to learn English, that'll make life easier. If not? Who cares. Who are we to try to force them?
Well, New Mexico has been around longer than a hundred years. We didn't invent it. We just bought it. I never said there was anything wrong with English being spoken in New Mexico. I don't live in New Mexico!
Over the history of New Mexico, however, Spanish has been common and accepted. What if, tomorrow, we bought a section of Mexico (where people were already living), and made it a part of the union, all while people are living and working there. Over time, Americans move down there since, after all, it's part of America now. Most of them are pretty live-and-let-live about English, since they're the outsiders. The state keeps, not takes, Spanish as an accepted language. Who would we be to tell them that's not ok?
That's exactly the case with New Mexico. Same story I just told.
Besides, my post was in reference to a poster's comments about families living in New Mexico for 'hundreds of years' and never bothering to learn English. My whole thing is that they aren't the ones that changed. The world changed around them. They didn't move anywhere. If they want to learn English, that'll make life easier. If not? Who cares. Who are we to try to force them?
As you said, your "hypothetical" story was, of course, pretty much how it actually happened-and there are some parallels, as well, with California and Texas. Many of the differences are due to the fact that New Mexico still has a tiny population, and the original "old timers" in the north still form a considerable percentage of the total--whereas in Texas, and much more so in California, the "old timers" were swamped with an EXTREME "gringo" in-migration. But they're still here---(I'm married to one).
Much of the nasty squabbling we see on these pages, I think, is the result of frustration, with a government that has openly and arrogantly refused to do anything meaningful about illegal immigration, and, on the rare occasions when it is even mentioned, come up with the most preposterous "whoppers" that wouldn't fool a reasonably-savvy 6-year old. It's just plain insulting. (Like when Bush made his only public statement on 'the Minutemen'-and called them 'vigilantes'---what a load of B.S., and what a lost opportunity to 'level' with all of us, in an open and honest way.)
We can put a man on the moon, and we can play "policeman" to half the world---yet we are told that it's "just not possible" to control our borders. That sort of absolute nonsense, I think, is what causes "tempers to flare", and of course, the "frustrated little guy", who can't "get back" at the government, turns in his anger to take it out on the "littler guy"---the illegal immigrant. That's just human nature.
new mexico has been in existance for nearly one hundred years, and by the way a state of the union of america....why should we not have english as the common language? i'm not saying that english only in their home...but engliash as a common language...seems logical to me.
on the subject of americans learning other languages, if i were to visit spain, or mexico or, france, or germany, i would definetly learn the common language to communicate...and if i chose to live there and was welcomed, because i would ask for permission, i would absolutely learn the language fluently.
Is it that easy for all of us to learn a different language, in my case and have had a reasonable education, would find it tough to become fluent in a short time, hate to admit it but it could take years for me to pick up the new. Some people are well versed in languages am thinking of a TV show recently filmed in Africa where people had three languages as a general rule.
Is it that easy for all of us to learn a different language, in my case and have had a reasonable education, would find it tough to become fluent in a short time, hate to admit it but it could take years for me to pick up the new. Some people are well versed in languages am thinking of a TV show recently filmed in Africa where people had three languages as a general rule.
It can take years to become fluent in a foreign language -- and some people never become fluent in another language. Case in point: I have a friend who took 4 years of Spanish in school and liked it but never became good at it. In his 4th year of Spanish (in college), the teacher came to him and said "I'll give you an A in this class if you promise me that you will not sign up for Spanish again next year."
I have another friend who is in a profession where people typically take jobs outside of the USA. They live for awhile here, then awhile there -- could be several months or several years. Most of them hire tutors when they move but it doesn't always do any good. In this case, he spent two years in Egypt. He learned how to read a few things in their writing and to speak a few things -- and that was it. He wasn't fluent at all. He moved from Egypt to Istanbul and learned almost no Turkish. He is now in Manila... Who knows what he will learn there?
I have a great deal of admiration for anyone who learns to speak fluently in a foreign language. Even more kudos if they learn to read it!
They said calling an American caucasian a "Gringo" is like calling an African American the "n" word.
Maybe we can ask Hispanics to have a parade and promise to do a burial of the word Gringo. Yet we whites can go a head and call each other Gringo all we want. In fact we should do a rap song of it. Does that sound politically correct??? Hmmmm.
UB50, all of your inevitable friends are moving around the globe LEGALLY for their vocations. Commendable, but not applicable here. More to the point of this topic, the illegals in Los Angeles reside here for decades having made deliberate choices not to learn English, nor to engage in the culture as well as the language here. I can't imagine an adult chosing same for the rest of their life: it would be like remaining an uninformed child forever, out of touch with everything outside your immediate family.
Famenity, I've visited East Africa, and the lecturers explained their three language educational system there at least. Students learn in their own tribal tongue, they also learn Swahili so that they can communicate with anyone else in Africa, and they also learn English so that they can communicate with anyone else in the world. Safari guides (who require 8 years of higher education, 4 of which in university) need a language in addition to English for their vocation. It's said that department heads make students draw lots to see who has to learn Japanese for these tourists! English remains the global language of commerce, science and widespread communication. It's a shame that the only place on the planet where people refuse to even consider learning English for their personal betterment is Los Angeles, California.
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