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I don't consider the law to be equivalent to morality. The idea of a social contract being the basis of morality is full of all kinds of problems. It's a weak theory in a lot of ways. At one point, slavery was legal. Frederick Douglass was in violation of multiple American laws; I wouldn't say that he was of bad moral character because of it.
So now illegals are akin to slaves?
What gives a group of people largely from the world's 12th largest economy, an economy where one third of all people are fat, where they have national health care and the world's richest man the moral right to break multiple American laws?
Illegals aren't noble people fighting the chains of involuntarily enslavement.
They are arrogant invaders who have thumbed their noses at rational American laws. They prop up dictators abroad and encourage their countrymen to have children they cannot afford to support.
Here in America they overcrowd local schools, lower wages, assist the greedy in union breaking and hurt our neediest citizens by competing with them for jobs and local resources. They increase taxes on our own middle class. They make our roads less safe they drive on them without insurance or licensure. They often obnoxiously refuse to learn English and make demands of Americans based solely on racist and ethnic criteria. In short they are a huge problem for the working class, a tax burden on the middle class and a means of helping out the really greedy rich.
The man in question knew the law. He voluntarily chose to break it. He now demands we reward him and his family for doing so even though we have no need of his chosen profession. He has no moral or legal standing to do so.
Illegals aren't nice or moral or kind or thoughtful. They are simply criminal line jumpers. We should treat them as such.
If your parents brought you in as a minor, and you overcame the odds to graduate valedictorian in high school then move on to law school I would be on your side. 2 different situations totally.
Here is the real double standard... Being Canadian none of the anti-illegals here would even care about you. I mean you assimilate into anglo culture within days! It's the Hispanics they don't like...pretty obvious in this thread: //www.city-data.com/forum/polit...as-failed.html
Paaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalease. If we had 10 million illegals from Canada low balling the work force, abusing our social systems then it would be the canadians who would enjoy the spot light. Its been called out a million times why hispanics from SOB get the attention and it is simple. They are by far the worst offenders with no one running a close second.
My point is that breaking the law is not always immoral. Do you agree or disagree?
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What gives a group of people largely from the world's 12th largest economy, an economy where one third of all people are fat, where they have national health care and the world's richest man the moral right to break multiple American laws?
So what if the world's richest man is Mexican? That has nothing to do with impoverished Mexicans living a terrible life, facing prospects of inescapable poverty. It's completely irrelevant.
What does it matter that a third of Mexicans are fat? How is that relevant? Is it that they aren't starving to death? Being fat is not a sign of a good quality of life.
The fact that Mexico is a large economy isn't relevant either. The income in Mexico and the wealth in Mexico is very concentrated in the hands of the wealthy.
I don't consider all forms of lawbreaking to be necessarily immoral. Sometimes, breaking a law can create the greater good. Sometimes, breaking a law can be an act of mercy. The social contract theory of ethics has a lot of weaknesses.
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Illegals aren't nice or moral or kind or thoughtful. They are simply criminal line jumpers. We should treat them as such.
How can you dehumanise and pigeonhole a group of people like that? How?
Do you consider them subhuman? Do you consider their lives worth less than those of "legal" people? You speak of them like they are nonpersons.
My point is that breaking the law is not always immoral. Do you agree or disagree?
Our immigration laws aren't immoral. If anything they are far too kind to Mexican nationals. Many Mexican nationals are allowed to immigrate here solely because of who they know. How is that fair?
Do you think we should have immigration laws? Or should anyone no matter how sick or how ill prepared be simply allowed to move here? Do you really think six billion can fit?
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So what if the world's richest man is Mexican? That has nothing to do with impoverished Mexicans living a terrible life, facing prospects of inescapable poverty. It's completely irrelevant.
Of course it's relevant. Mexicans argue we should allow them to live here in violation of our immigration laws and gain benefits from doing so because they have no other choice or they'll starve to death.
That's complete hogwash.
If they are all that hungry why don't they demand their fellow Mexicans provide for them instead? Or the world's richest man? Why is Joe American's responsibility to provide meals for Mexicans via raised taxes but the World's Richest Man and Mexican national gets completely off the hook?
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What does it matter that a third of Mexicans are fat? How is that relevant? Is it that they aren't starving to death? Being fat is not a sign of a good quality of life.
Of course it's relevant. Illegals arrogantly argue that they'll starve to death if we refuse to let them ignore our immigration laws. Why is pointing out that obesity is actually a much greater problem not relevant? Why are Americans supposed to make sure that life is perfect for Mexicans?
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The fact that Mexico is a large economy isn't relevant either. The income in Mexico and the wealth in Mexico is very concentrated in the hands of the wealthy.
Of course it is.
Maybe if so many lazy illegals would demand changes from Mexico instead of poor innocent Joe American that situation would change. By refusing to do so and instead simply invading America illegals abdicate any moral high ground they might believe they occupy.
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I don't consider all forms of lawbreaking to be necessarily immoral. Sometimes, breaking a law can create the greater good. Sometimes, breaking a law can be an act of mercy. The social contract theory of ethics has a lot of weaknesses.
Illegals who break our immigration laws do no such thing. They make both American and Mexico a much worse place.
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How can you dehumanise and pigeonhole a group of people like that? How?
Dehumanize them?
Nonsense.
On the contary. I am holding them up as fully human. As human beings I expect them to act like mature adults and obey our immigration laws, not prop up dictators, have children they cannot afford and act as scabs and a burden on most Americans.
It is YOU and your ilk who infantilize them and thus dehumanize them by refusing to make any demands of them at all.
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Do you consider them subhuman? Do you consider their lives worth less than those of "legal" people? You speak of them like they are nonpersons.
I consider them criminals who have arrogantly broken our immigration laws and expect to be rewarded for it. I consider their supporters at best ill guided and at worse both horribly ignorant and revoltingly sanctimonious.
You have done nothing to refute a single one of my points. Instead you have deeply and absurdly insulted my character and misused both history and metaphor.
But that's an illegal supporter for you . . .
No one has the inherent right to break our immigration, employment or automotive laws. People who believe otherwise are not fit citizens of any nation let alone the sort of immigrants we should welcome here.
Where the hell is your contempt for the Mexican officials who let this situation happen in the first place? For the ones who won't make Mexico a better place when they could easily do so? Why, like most illegal supporters, is it directed at people like me who simply essentially told to shut up and clean up the mess? And excoriated as deeply awful people if we dare argue the right to refuse?
I don't consider the law to be equivalent to morality. The idea of a social contract being the basis of morality is full of all kinds of problems. It's a weak theory in a lot of ways. At one point, slavery was legal. Frederick Douglass was in violation of multiple American laws; I wouldn't say that he was of bad moral character because of it.
Frederick Douglas was in violation of multiple American (federal) laws? He violated state laws, not federal.
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Originally Posted by RalphKNS
My point is that breaking the law is not always immoral. Do you agree or disagree?
Immoral or not, laws are there for an intended purpose, whether you believe they are immoral or not is irrelevant.
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Originally Posted by RalphKNS
So what if the world's richest man is Mexican? That has nothing to do with impoverished Mexicans living a terrible life, facing prospects of inescapable poverty. It's completely irrelevant.
What does it matter that a third of Mexicans are fat? How is that relevant? Is it that they aren't starving to death? Being fat is not a sign of a good quality of life.
The fact that Mexico is a large economy isn't relevant either. The income in Mexico and the wealth in Mexico is very concentrated in the hands of the wealthy.
I don't consider all forms of lawbreaking to be necessarily immoral. Sometimes, breaking a law can create the greater good. Sometimes, breaking a law can be an act of mercy. The social contract theory of ethics has a lot of weaknesses.
How can you dehumanise and pigeonhole a group of people like that? How?
Do you consider them subhuman? Do you consider their lives worth less than those of "legal" people? You speak of them like they are nonpersons.
How are they being dehumanized? They come here of their own freewill, many times as economic refugees looking out for their own interests. Some even come as a "rite of passage", but don't let that stop them.
Do you think we should have immigration laws? Or should anyone no matter how sick or how ill prepared be simply allowed to move here? Do you really think six billion can fit?
Strawman. That's not what I'm arguing about. I never advocated six billion people moving to the United States.
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Of course it's relevant. Mexicans argue we should allow them to live here in violation of our immigration laws and gain benefits from doing so because they have no other choice or they'll starve to death.
Surviving is not the same thing as living.
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Maybe if so many lazy illegals would demand changes from Mexico instead of poor innocent Joe American that situation would change. By refusing to do so and instead simply invading America illegals abdicate any moral high ground they might believe they occupy.
How do you propose they "demand change"? Shall they write their congressmen?
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Illegals who break our immigration laws do no such thing. They make both American and Mexico a much worse place.
How do they make Mexico worse? If they are bad people, then by leaving Mexico, they are making it better. If they are good people, they are making America better.
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It is YOU and your ilk who infantilize them and thus dehumanize them by refusing to make any demands of them at all.
Keep my "ilk" out of this, please.
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You have done nothing to refute a single one of my points. Instead you have deeply and absurdly insulted my character and misused both history and metaphor.
I have done no such thing.
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But that's an illegal supporter for you . . .
Don't poison the well.
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Where the hell is your contempt for the Mexican officials who let this situation happen in the first place? For the ones who won't make Mexico a better place when they could easily do so? Why, like most illegal supporters, is it directed at people like me who simply essentially told to shut up and clean up the mess?
I don't think you are arguing with me, by this point. I think you are arguing with somebody whom you were having an argument with at some point in the past, and for some reason, I am a suitable proxy to hear the argument you wish you had directed towards them.
Strawman. That's not what I'm arguing about. I never advocated six billion people moving to the United States.
That's the ultimate endpoint of what you advocate. If Mexicans should be allowed to freely violate our immigration laws why not othrs as well? Why should we discrimate against others who might also benefit from moving to the United States? Many of them are far more impoverished than the average Mexican.
Why do you only care about some people and not others? How could you be so cruel and coldhearted?
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Surviving is not the same thing as living.
Not an American problem to fix. I am sorry you and they think otherwise.
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How do you propose they "demand change"? Shall they write their congressmen?
If they can find all that effort to break American laws surely it is not too much ask they the find an equal amount of effort to change Mexican ones?
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How do they make Mexico worse? If they are bad people, then by leaving Mexico, they are making it better. If they are good people, they are making America better.
They send money home thus propping up the Mexican government and reducing the desire for change. They come here and make life harder for the working class and increase taxes on the middle class. Their actions are problem for everyone but Mexico's oligarchy and our superrich.
I am sorry you seem unable to grasp these simple facts. Perhaps you should consider studying up on this subject before commenting on it?
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Keep my "ilk" out of this, please.
Don't insult me deeply because I think that illegals should obey our immigration laws and I won't return the favor. Understood?
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I have done no such thing.
You need to reread your own words if you really believe that.
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Don't poison the well.
So you don't support illegal immigration? Really?
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I don't think you are arguing with me, by this point. I think you are arguing with somebody whom you were having an argument with at some point in the past, and for some reason, I am a suitable proxy to hear the argument you wish you had directed towards them.
I think you came into this thread with you guns blazing and remain shocked that people here didn't turn into a quivering mass of jelly when you used what you believed were foolproof arguments.
I am sorry to disappoint you but you are not a better, kinder and more compassionate human being merely because you think Mexican nationals should be allowed to violate American immigration laws and overrule our democracy with impunity.
Our immigration laws aren't immoral. If anything they are far too kind to Mexican nationals. Many Mexican nationals are allowed to immigrate here solely because of who they know...
I'll agree with that, but it is often whom they "Biblically" know...
It isn't going to be whom you have friended on Facebook, so you know, two-thirds of the time it is going to be based on a relationship to a U.S. citizen...
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Originally Posted by Eleanora1
...How is that fair?...
Immigration laws are not designed to be "fair", they are to determine whom has the qualifications to immigrate...
That's the ultimate endpoint of what you advocate.
No, that's a slippery slope fallacy.
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Why do you only care about some people and not others? How could you be so cruel and coldhearted?
If you're not going to take this seriously, don't bother.
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Not an American problem to fix. I am sorry you and they think otherwise.
Why? US policies are part of the reason Mexico is such a shoddy place.
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If they can find all that effort to break American laws surely it is not too much ask they the find an equal amount of effort to change Mexican ones?
These are qualitatively different things.
[qoute]I think you came into this thread with you guns blazing and remain shocked that people here didn't turn into a quivering mass of jelly when you used what you believed were foolproof arguments.[/quote]
Ohoho...
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I am sorry to disappoint you but you are not a better, kinder and more compassionate human being merely because you think Mexican nationals should be allowed to violate American immigration laws and overrule our democracy with impunity.
Democracy? The United States is not a democracy...
I'll agree with that, but it is often whom they "Biblically" know...
It isn't going to be whom you have friended on Facebook, so you know, two-thirds of the time it is going to be based on a relationship to a U.S. citizen...
Immigration laws are not designed to be "fair", they are to determine whom has the qualifications to immigrate...
Come on, you know damned well that is what Eleanora meant. She was speaking of how the system works by getting a pass to the front of the line just for having a relationship to a U.S. citizens, not knowing someone on Facebook.
Immigration laws should be fair to all national/ethnic groups and having a relative here shouldn't put you to the front of the line. Having a relative here shouldn't be used as a qualifier. Diversity, remember?
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