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He does that a lot, his brain really can't process clear logic, pay him no mind.
Indianapolis is in a sort of limbo when it come to PT, we want to invest in it but at the same time we have roads and highways that are in constant need of repair and maintenance as well, both are equally expensive and very time consuming. Not to mention PT is just one of the very important factors that make people move. Urban professionals arent just going to move to 21st and Meridian just because a rail or BRT runs through it, there needs to be conveniences, entertainment (outside more than just the mile SQ) and quality housing. At this current time there is not enough demand for large rail use in the city for it to be worth it economically, we would be better suited investing in increased bus services and BRT, while at the same time gentrifying our urban core (which needs to be done DESPERATELY!!!!)
He does that a lot, his brain really can't process clear logic, pay him no mind.
Indianapolis is in a sort of limbo when it come to PT, we want to invest in it but at the same time we have roads and highways that are in constant need of repair and maintenance as well, both are equally expensive and very time consuming. Not to mention PT is just one of the very important factors that make people move. Urban professionals arent just going to move to 21st and Meridian just because a rail or BRT runs through it, there needs to be conveniences, entertainment (outside more than just the mile SQ) and quality housing. At this current time there is not enough demand for large rail use in the city for it to be worth it economically, we would be better suited investing in increased bus services and BRT, while at the same time gentrifying our urban core (which needs to be done DESPERATELY!!!!)
The only area outside of downtown that's not doing any type of gentrification is the near west side around Haughville. North, East and Immediate south of the downtown borders are all in gentrification with the most being on the near east side and fountain square (SE). Think of Fall Creek proper to what it is now compared to when it was referred as simply being dodge city. Goose the Market is right there in Fall Creek Proper and Ivy Tech adds to it esp. with them renovating and opening Old St. V hospital. Most of Indianapolis historic housing outside of M-K, Irvington and Woodruff Place are all actually downtown (Fletcher Pl, Ransom, Old NS, Lockerbie, St. Joe's, Chatham Arch).
Rail, not needed for Indianapolis as well as other areas roughly the same size to a little bit larger. There are a few cities where the limited rail they have is somewhat successful but for the most part the buy in has been lackluster and just another drain on the local tax payers. BRT and expanded bus is the perfect fit. The grid is pretty much N-S, E-W with very little deviation so it would be a very clean design since the city is basically a square.
...(1)I will start by saying, more options doesn't always equate to better, that means it's just more. (2) Case in point, the most efficient way to get from point A to point B is a car. (3) Until they develop the star trek transporter, that's what it will be...
(4)Your cost perspective just about floored me. That would NEVER fly here and tax coming into the state to benefit Indianapolis would cause a massive revolt. Southern Indiana isn't too keen about paying a toll to cross the bridge now but they understand it benefits them and maintains the bridge that they will use for the most part without the rest of Indiana having to fork over unless they travel that particular route. (5) Trying to tax anyone who comes into the State irregardless of where they enter to benefit solely Indianapolis without any of said monies being used to benefit those particular areas would cause every state legislature to lose his or her job come next election. Any tax for Indianapolis public transportation would have to be strictly LOCAL. Heck, Lake County is balking at one little slice of Cline Avenue being a toll, you really think taxing statewide to benefit Indianapolis would pass muster?
(6)Your budget cost is actually quite low once you figure in, the city wouldn't have to upgrade sidewalks, they would have to build them from scratch, modify/expand a lot of the thoroughfares throughout the townships (think of your Holiday Park route which couldn't handle it in any shape way or form that is 100% residential). Doing that adds the cost of having to move sewage lines, power lines, etc. so keep adding on to that price tag.
(7)Indianapolis doesn't need "rail," it needs a cost efficient method of transportation which can be done with expanded local bus and BRT and for a lot cheaper and fully functional and implemented in a fraction of the time and more apt to stay on budget compared to 20 years for a hard rail line in which said constructors will come to the public trough time and time again holding their hand out saying they need more money...
I am going to respectfully disagree with almost everything you said.
1. Why is Capitalism great? Does it not give people more options? If having more options was not preferred, I would think a lot more people would be on board for Socialism and Communism... but they're not. More options means people are not necessarily forced into one specific thing, in this case mode of transportation.
2. And why is that? Is it because a vast majority, if not all the money, has been spent on ways to get cars around?
3. Even with a transporter, the people of Indiana will scoff at the idea of paying for such a thing. Why? Because they still have their precious, gas-guzzling cars. And if a technology like that existed you can bet other cities around America would jump at the chance to have such an innovative technology at their disposal. Great cities look to the future. Indiana looks at the now and says, "Yep! It's good enough!"
4. That's what I would do (place tolls. It would also have the benefit of getting people to use the transit in place). That doesn't mean it's the preferred method. I said Indiana could grow, refine, and sell it's own gas, and that could cover most, if not all, of the costs associated with such a massive plan as I propose.
The lines don't have to be colors. Advertising rights could be sold to companies to generate extra money for the lines.
5. Isn't that all people complain about? Bad politicians in office? So what if they all get voted out? Isn't that what the American people have been clamoring for for the past decades?
6. I already said my initial cost was a low ball figure. Besides that, all the work you mentioned means people would have jobs. People would be working. It would create jobs to improve our already antiquated utility services. And it creates jobs to actually build the system proposed.
7. First and foremost, I said the buses would come first. They would use the routes I propose for the eventual rail lines. I didn't dwell on that facet of the plan, but it is there if you go back and read it.
And now for the word "need". Do you need electricity? No. Do you need a stove? No. The fact remains that if you've never had something, you probably don't see a "need" for it.
Ask the Amish how much they need all the things "regular folk" need. I bet they say they don't "need" electricity. But I would bet you would say you "need" it. Why? Because you've had it, and you couldn't see yourself living without it.
Does Bloomington need an Interstate going through/around the city? No. But if they got one, I would bet they would never want to give it up. Why? That Interstate would make it quicker and easier to get around, and would add extra drive to the economy.
Indianapolis didn't need 465. But once it was built and in place, Indianapolis residents couldn't imagine a Circle City without a 58 mile loop of Interstate around the city.
And finally, how much would gas have to cost before the city/state residents decided there was a "need" for other transportation options? $5 a gallon? $7? $10?
I am a huge proponent of mass transit in Indy and I am completely on board with IndyConnect's plan to beef up the bus system we have even if it means raising my taxes a bit. However, I also see why mass transit is such a hard sell here.
First, it's quick and easy to get from point A to point B almost anywhere in the city by car. Traffic jams are really a rare occurrence in part because our interstates don't have interchanges every half mile to a mile like they do in more traffic logged cities I've driven like Chicago. Interchanges cause most traffic jams so having fewer of them here means congestion is lower.
Second, and probably the biggest factor, parking downtown is dirt cheap and very abundant. You can always find a place to park downtown no matter what is going on and aside from special events, you can park for $20 for a full a day at Circle Centre. Monthly parking passes elsewhere downtown typically range from $100-130 per month. Assuming you work 5 days a week with 4 weeks per month, you're looking at parking downtown for only $4-6 per day! For the whole day! That's ridiculously cheap considering Chicago will cost you $35 for just a handful of hours on the Magnificent Mile. I know Chicago is a bad comparison, but I have little other experience to go on. But parking downtown being so cheap means it's cheaper to just drive than take any form of mass transit.
And as I mentioned parking downtown is abundant. I have never gone downtown with the worry of not having a place to park. It simply doesn't happen. In order to get people onto mass transit, the city needs to cut the amount of parking lots and garages downtown in half and thus force the price of parking to skyrocket. Otherwise, mass transit will never be seen as a cheaper alternative to driving, even if gas jumps to $7 a gallon.
And finally, as far as toll roads go, I do not agree with placing a toll both on every single interstate that crosses into Marion County, in part because that means the only way across Indiana without paying a toll would be I-64 way down south. And north to south you might make more people choose to drive I-75 through Ohio and skip Indiana so as not to pay the tolls. And people from Chicago will just take I-57 down through Illinois instead of I-65 through Indiana. Thus we'd miss out on revenue when those people stop for gas or to eat, or stay the night in a hotel. Most cities that have toll roads, confine them to bypasses. So if you want to make a toll road, make 465 a toll road. That would make the most sense. It would still create a lot of income as people on 69 and 74 are forced onto that highway to continue out the other side of the city. It could force more traffic onto local roads, but that increase in traffic may drive more people to mass transit.
Unfortunately, almost all of the things I mentioned wouldn't be possible to implement until after the mass transit system was in place and complete. People will use mass transit if it is the best means of getting around the city. But if it costs $10 round trip and takes 45 minutes to get from my house in Fishers to downtown Indy when I could just drive myself in 25 minutes and spend $5 on parking and gas spent round trip, I'm more likely to just drive myself.
It was pretty much an exercise for me to get more familiar with Photoshop. It took me well over 50 hours to make, and another 4-5 hours to write my initial post.
If people want to say the plan is unachievable, (much like putting a person on the Moon) good for them.
But would this BRT and, eventual, rail plan not serve the city?
In my opinion... Wait... No, this rail system would be superior to Chicago's. More areas covered, and more of the city's attractions covered by a mass transit system.
I believe that Indianapolis could have the second best transit system in the country with my plan.
I am a huge proponent of mass transit in Indy and I am completely on board with IndyConnect's plan to beef up the bus system we have even if it means raising my taxes a bit. However, I also see why mass transit is such a hard sell here.
First, it's quick and easy to get from point A to point B almost anywhere in the city by car. Traffic jams are really a rare occurrence in part because our interstates don't have interchanges every half mile to a mile like they do in more traffic logged cities I've driven like Chicago. Interchanges cause most traffic jams so having fewer of them here means congestion is lower.
Second, and probably the biggest factor, parking downtown is dirt cheap and very abundant. You can always find a place to park downtown no matter what is going on and aside from special events, you can park for $20 for a full a day at Circle Centre. Monthly parking passes elsewhere downtown typically range from $100-130 per month. Assuming you work 5 days a week with 4 weeks per month, you're looking at parking downtown for only $4-6 per day! For the whole day! That's ridiculously cheap considering Chicago will cost you $35 for just a handful of hours on the Magnificent Mile. I know Chicago is a bad comparison, but I have little other experience to go on. But parking downtown being so cheap means it's cheaper to just drive than take any form of mass transit.
And as I mentioned parking downtown is abundant. I have never gone downtown with the worry of not having a place to park. It simply doesn't happen. In order to get people onto mass transit, the city needs to cut the amount of parking lots and garages downtown in half and thus force the price of parking to skyrocket. Otherwise, mass transit will never be seen as a cheaper alternative to driving, even if gas jumps to $7 a gallon.
And finally, as far as toll roads go, I do not agree with placing a toll both on every single interstate that crosses into Marion County, in part because that means the only way across Indiana without paying a toll would be I-64 way down south. And north to south you might make more people choose to drive I-75 through Ohio and skip Indiana so as not to pay the tolls. And people from Chicago will just take I-57 down through Illinois instead of I-65 through Indiana. Thus we'd miss out on revenue when those people stop for gas or to eat, or stay the night in a hotel. Most cities that have toll roads, confine them to bypasses. So if you want to make a toll road, make 465 a toll road. That would make the most sense. It would still create a lot of income as people on 69 and 74 are forced onto that highway to continue out the other side of the city. It could force more traffic onto local roads, but that increase in traffic may drive more people to mass transit.
Unfortunately, almost all of the things I mentioned wouldn't be possible to implement until after the mass transit system was in place and complete. People will use mass transit if it is the best means of getting around the city. But if it costs $10 round trip and takes 45 minutes to get from my house in Fishers to downtown Indy when I could just drive myself in 25 minutes and spend $5 on parking and gas spent round trip, I'm more likely to just drive myself.
Great point.
Also NO TOLLS! thats what sets Indy apart from Chicago/NYC/LA etc. They can Toll their citizens all they want but please keep Indy toll Free! it saves our citizens money and hence one of the many reasons Indy is the nations most affordable city. Tolls also take away from disposible income which is spent on the economy.
The only area outside of downtown that's not doing any type of gentrification is the near west side around Haughville. North, East and Immediate south of the downtown borders are all in gentrification with the most being on the near east side and fountain square (SE). Think of Fall Creek proper to what it is now compared to when it was referred as simply being dodge city. Goose the Market is right there in Fall Creek Proper and Ivy Tech adds to it esp. with them renovating and opening Old St. V hospital. Most of Indianapolis historic housing outside of M-K, Irvington and Woodruff Place are all actually downtown (Fletcher Pl, Ransom, Old NS, Lockerbie, St. Joe's, Chatham Arch).
I realize you have love for this city and don't like people talking bad about it but for the love of God learn how to take some damn criticism once and awhile. That being said the fact that you think a few restored Victorian era houses and a deli or two complete the gentrification of a neighborhood is exactly the kind of thinking that is keeping this city back. Locals think their so urban now just because an extended CVS and Walgreens opens up next to some condos on 16th and meridian. Not to say neighborhoods in Center Township haven't been working hard at changing their image and trying to attract business and urbanites but the movement has barely begun. We need to invest in big businesses as well as franchised and local ones to bring real conveniences and change to our urban neighborhoods. Center Township should be the core of business and commerce in our city and shouldn't have to compete so hard with the north side and suburbs. Christ even looking at our downtown core there's some MAJOR room for improvement. Look at Michigan and Capitol all the way north to 65: Parking lots, Random fields, car washes, a few supply companies here an there. We have so much land right downtown that have have yet to utilize to its full potential, let alone the neighborhoods outside the "loop".
I realize you have love for this city and don't like people talking bad about it but for the love of God learn how to take some damn criticism once and awhile. That being said the fact that you think a few restored Victorian era houses and a deli or two complete the gentrification of a neighborhood is exactly the kind of thinking that is keeping this city back. Locals think their so urban now just because an extended CVS and Walgreens opens up next to some condos on 16th and meridian. Not to say neighborhoods in Center Township haven't been working hard at changing their image and trying to attract business and urbanites but the movement has barely begun. We need to invest in big businesses as well as franchised and local ones to bring real conveniences and change to our urban neighborhoods. Center Township should be the core of business and commerce in our city and shouldn't have to compete so hard with the north side and suburbs. Christ even looking at our downtown core there's some MAJOR room for improvement. Look at Michigan and Capitol all the way north to 65: Parking lots, Random fields, car washes, a few supply companies here an there. We have so much land right downtown that have have yet to utilize to its full potential, let alone the neighborhoods outside the "loop".
When I moved here, you weren't even TEN years old. You have no clue about progress made between then and now with the varying neighborhoods. The difference between what Fall Creek Place is now compared to what it was is a complete gentrification of the entire area. It's the same with Fountain Square, Woodruff, Ransom. Even Lockerbie. You don't know because you were too young to care or understand for that matter.
...They can Toll their citizens all they want but please keep Indy toll Free! it saves our citizens money and hence one of the many reasons Indy is the nations most affordable city. Tolls also take away from disposible income which is spent on the economy.
Heaven forbid people pay for something they use everyday! Like roads!
Guaranteed whatever people pay in taxes for use of the roads is far, far less than what the actual cost is to keep them up and expand them.
And you keep on bringing out that soon to be dead horse, if only for a couple more beatings. Indy is close to becoming "unaffordable" with the price of gas rising higher. When gas is a solid $5 a gallon and everyone there is acting like it's the apocalypse and their life as they know it is coming to an end, please, please tell them, "But... but... the housing is so cheap!"
Why is it so cheap? Not because of Republicans or Democrats. But because it is that UNDESIRABLE that the prices are so low. Gold and diamonds are more expensive than aluminum not "just because", but because they are more desirable.
I would have thought that staunch Republicans who like to tout "economics" so much would realize that.
Here's a secret... Whitestown, IN is more affordable than Indianapolis. Care to take a stab at that one?
If you don't live within the 368.2 square miles that is officially Indianapolis, don't write that as your "location". It gives people like a me a bad name by proxy.
The only time I've seen a massive pool of blood in a public park was in Indianapolis. The only time I've had to put up with drive by shootings was in Indianapolis (the target being two houses down, on MULTIPLE occasions). The only time I've felt my parent's well-being was in danger was in Indianapolis.
You want to say you live in Indianapolis? Then do it. Don't pretend, and say you do. Indy doesn't need people to ride it's coat tails, it needs people to fill the coat.
(Personal Message Quote A2DAC)
Dont spew Chicago Ignorance at me A2DAC lol cause it just makes Chicago look like the collection of an ignorant corrupted society that much more.
And people wonder why i HATE Chicago............
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