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I did the commute from Carmel to Fishers over 116 for about six months before I left. It was worse than my commute from Carmel to Keystone at the Crossing. It's irritating, but doable, at least for now.
I usually do 146th St for my commute between Carmel and Fishers. I don't have to but it's either that or 116th. I've tried both 146th usually has a half mile back up from Allisonville. 116th usually isn't as bad but still bad. And it really backs up at the Keystone interchange in Carmel. Then I'd have to go north on Allisonville which is another bottleneck spot, especially with road construction right now up to 131st St. But Carmel has reduced my commute by replacing stoplights with roundabouts. My commute time has dropped 5-8 minutes thank to no stoplights until I hit 146th St and only roundabouts.
I think there are several reasons why Carmel/Fishers are seen as so favorable (probably more, but I'll stick to the following 4. (I'd argue it's more of the Carmel area and Fishers is more of Carmel lite.) Biggest thing is just overall perception of the community. It has done a good job of adding infill condos, apartments, homes etc that are affordable but good quality to increase population, but they still have a lot of the most expensive homes in the Indy area (Many Colts players, Lily Big Wigs and CEOs live in this area). In addition people perceive their Schools as top notch, low crime, but low diversity. Average income for Carmel is $315,000. I would bet maybe Zionsville is only community with higher average income. I do not live in Carmel, but worked there for a bit and still have family who live there, own a business there, send their kids to the schools and are involved on the Carmel Arts Council. I know this is not necessarily everyones perception or even necessarily my exact beliefs on Carmel, but my reasons for why I think Carmel is seen as such a favorable place to live, work or move to. The positives that have really set it apart starting in some cases before the 2000s:
1) More forward thinking than most other communities.
Does this sometimes mean they have to incur higher debts to pay for those things? Yes, but I think that most people living in Carmel are willing (and able) to shell out the extra money to cover those things. Just look at the example of the roundabouts. Love or hate them they tend to move traffic in that area much more smoothly than other areas of Indy (as other posters mention alot of times travel in Carmel is great until you hit Indy area or communities around Carmel that don't have roundabouts then traffic slows down) and you know they are successful by fact that other communities are starting to incorporate them into their expanding infrastructure as well. They started building those (1990s) even before their population exploded as it has last 10-15 years. Is the Paladium (Center for the Performing Arts) and other projects always paying for themselves or bringing in the headliners like they advertised when built? Maybe not, but again I think it's perception of look what we have that most other communities wish they could have.
2) Trail and Park System.
I think they were one of the first Indy communities to ensure that new neighborhoods built walking and running paths and that those connected up to pre existing sidewalks. They also added many sidewalks/running specific paths along major roads such as along Hazel Dell Parkway. Their expansion and connection to the Monon Trail helped significantly with the trails in the area. This encourages active lifestyle and entices young families to want to move there. They also have a fair amount of parks and not just small pocket ones, many are fairly large and each one has different characteristics to draw people to them. Monon Center has a waterpark and YMCA along with splashpads and playgrounds. West Park has a nice little splashpad, wetland areas, and sledding hill. Coxhall open grass spaces, and River Road Park access to the river and trails, etc. They all provide different things to encourage use from multiple families and groups, each one is unique and different.
3) Businesses:
Carmel has never been too much of a factory or blue collar community so they've, at recently, had mostly white collar jobs such as when Conseco was headquartered there. This means they are perceived as not having an "ugly" industrial side. I also think they've done a good job of lately also diversifying putting businesses in the bottom of mixed use developments. This encourages young professionals or those maybe without kids to still move to the area to be close to jobs. That also provides a strong tax base without necessarily having additional students added to the school system. Those condos and mixed use also break up the monotony you see in so many other suburbs of just vinyl village after vinyl village. They have been able to attract high end businesses and restaurants that other areas outside of downtown maybe can't. This leads to influx in people visiting the area since that's the only area where they can get those goods or services.
4) School Perception/Support and Sports:
I think that honestly there are many schools in Indiana that are on par with Carmel when it comes to the actual education received. Again I think the perception is that Carmel has the best teachers, but in reality its just that generally parents are more supportive and involved in this community compared to others and that is the biggest indicator of academic success IMO. I think the fact that their sports and musical teams/groups consistently are winning state or doing really well helps too. What parent doesn't want their child involved with a successful after school program (albeit some teams are HUGE!!!! so if you aren't good enough you'll never get a sniff of varsity/1st chair, etc). The arts are extremely well supported and not just at the high school level. All of these things paint a positive picture on Carmel schools even though they still have their issues, but consistently hearing positive outweighs any negatives.
Overall I think it's seen as the gold standard of what to do. Do I think it necessarily is as good as that, no, but I do think there are some good qualities that they have that other communities are trying to emulate. I think this fact along with having so many things that people look for when moving from out of state or even in state is what drives Carmel's reputation. I think there are very affordable homes in Carmel, but I also think there are definitely other areas where your money can go further and you are less likely to have the "Keeping up with the Joneses" effect. I think it creates this effect where many can afford to live there and get these extra luxuries and benefits of living there. While their taxes may be higher than other areas they perceive it as not as expensive or worth the extra cost, especially if coming from other parts of the country where COL is much higher.
When I lived in Carmel, I was probably lower middle income relative to most men in Carmel, but upper middle income compared to the Indianapolis metro as a whole.
I was single and in my late 20s then. When I moved to Indy, it was on very short notice. I spent a week in an extended stay hotel out on Michigan Ave. past Costco, and had to make a relatively quick decision. I found an apartment in Carmel within my budget, and given how nice the community was and being from out of the area, it was an easy decision. Given what I know now, I might have chosen differently, but I made a good decision with what I had to work with at the time.
I didn't get this "keep up with the Joneses" pressure. I have a couple dozen Facebook friends from Carmel. Most of my social circle in Carmel was 50+ and married. They knew I couldn't maintain the lifestyle of a 50+ senior management couple. That didn't stop me from making friends. It was obvious from being younger, single, and with a heavy Southern accent that I wasn't the normal Carmelite,
The Monon Center is the name of the gym and the water park. The park itself is Carmel Central Park. There is no YMCA component there. That park was extremely nice for a city park. I'm very fortunate to live in an area that has far better outdoor recreation than anywhere in Indiana, but Carmel did well with what it had there.
When I lived in Carmel, I was probably lower middle income relative to most men in Carmel, but upper middle income compared to the Indianapolis metro as a whole.
I was single and in my late 20s then. When I moved to Indy, it was on very short notice. I spent a week in an extended stay hotel out on Michigan Ave. past Costco, and had to make a relatively quick decision. I found an apartment in Carmel within my budget, and given how nice the community was and being from out of the area, it was an easy decision. Given what I know now, I might have chosen differently, but I made a good decision with what I had to work with at the time.
I didn't get this "keep up with the Joneses" pressure. I have a couple dozen Facebook friends from Carmel. Most of my social circle in Carmel was 50+ and married. They knew I couldn't maintain the lifestyle of a 50+ senior management couple. That didn't stop me from making friends. It was obvious from being younger, single, and with a heavy Southern accent that I wasn't the normal Carmelite,
The Monon Center is the name of the gym and the water park. The park itself is Carmel Central Park. There is no YMCA component there. That park was extremely nice for a city park. I'm very fortunate to live in an area that has far better outdoor recreation than anywhere in Indiana, but Carmel did well with what it had there.
Agreed with he rest of it.
That's right thanks I forgot it's called Carmel Central Park. I always assumed it was a YMCA just because I knew there was a gym and other programs offered there similar to a Y.
I think the "keeping up with the Joneses" bit is honestly more an HOA thing than specific cities and towns. From my family that lives in Carmel, their HOA restrictions and bylaws are way crazier than most I've encountered or heard about. They would get notices from their HOA threatening fines for things that in most neighborhoods and areas wouldn't even be an issue (too many dandelions -- so they needed to get weed spray or dandelions controlled professionally). That's just one example. They love their neighbors and neighborhood and never have had a problem with making friends in it, but I think the Joneses reference is just what they've told me about their HOA and other friends of their who had issues in other neighborhoods with their HOA on things that generally are considered extra upkeep of home and property that most other neighborhoods wouldn't care about beyond the mowing your lawn, painting your house, etc. Again I know that is not reflective of every neighborhood in Carmel. I know there are other communities probably just as restrictive, but with trying to maintain property values and make their neighborhood a place people want to buy homes in within Carmel rather than just building brand new down the road this was one of the things that made them feel like a Joneses situation.
I don't deny that HOAs keep home/community values up and definitely are generally a good thing with what they do upkeep wise for the community.
I just think my relatives case, while maybe one in a million (seriously if you saw their yard when they got the complaint from the HOA about the dandelions you would laugh at how few were there) also being in Carmel just creates that image of the Joneses.
It would be interesting, maybe in another thread, to hear/see what some of the craziest HOA requirements or complaints that are out there are. This would obviously put things more in perspective of it's everywhere and varies and not just a Carmel issue.
We moved to Carmel from Massachusetts two years ago, and I think it was a great decision that we never would have made absent a job transfer. I was sad at the time to leave MA (it was for a corporate relocation) but I see now how much better the quality of life is in Carmel - from kind people, to traffic, to quality housing, to cost -these are all better. We don't have the ocean or drive-to skiing, or as many big tourist sites, but we never made it to the ocean anyway unless we were on vacation, so that hasn't changed at all. And now we can fly to CO to ski. The weather in Carmel isn't great all the time, but for us it's better than Boston - much less snow and I feel it gets warmer earlier and colder later in the spring/fall. But the weather will be a pretty big change from CA. But, we love our new house, our new friends, the convenience of everything, the schools and quality and variety of activities, and it's just been a very welcoming experience.
You'd probably pay less for living expenses in Indiana, depending on where you're coming from in California. Usually there are just tradeoffs for taking a pay cut, not always however. Minimum wage may be lower, but many entry level jobs are paying $12-15 an hour due to labor shortages in many parts of the state.
HA,HA. "You'd probably pay less for living expenses in IN vs CA" That's a HUGE understatement, haha. Upland CA, like most decent suburbs of LA, is uber expensive.
Anywhere in the US is going to have a worse climate than California IMO. Even so, I'd move too, if for nothing else but to afford a nicer, newer home. Those 'burbs of Indy sound like a safe choice.
Carmel was way ahead of the curve in practicing New Urbanism before it became envogue. The Mayor of Carmel saw the results of suburbs that were once nice but went into decline because they relied on one single demograph of middle class married couples with children whose chief concern was single family housing and good schools. Those suburbs started to free fall into low income suburbs once that housing aged and middle class families fled to further outer suburbs that offered the newer bigger better quality housing. Carmel's Mayor didn't want to repeat those mistakes of those other suburban bedroom communities. His plan was for Carmel to mature into its own actual city in its own right for all age groups and demographs instead of being just a bedroom suburb for married couples with children.
Zoning is strict in that generic Developer Modernism apartments which is now being predominantly built in present day American metropolitan areas cannot be built in Carmel. Strip malls and Big Box stores with gigantic parking lots fronting the streets are not allowed to be built. Carmel is being built for the pedestrian on a street level as opposed to being developed for the automobile driver lifestyle.
I don't deny that HOAs keep home/community values up and definitely are generally a good thing with what they do upkeep wise for the community.
I just think my relatives case, while maybe one in a million (seriously if you saw their yard when they got the complaint from the HOA about the dandelions you would laugh at how few were there) also being in Carmel just creates that image of the Joneses.
It would be interesting, maybe in another thread, to hear/see what some of the craziest HOA requirements or complaints that are out there are. This would obviously put things more in perspective of it's everywhere and varies and not just a Carmel issue.
Agreed.
I currently reside in Florida, where nearly every community built in the last 25 years has an HOA with bylaws and covenants of some sort. Most make a great deal of sense - you don't want your neighbor parking their pickup truck in the front yard or painting their house purple.
However, it seems that the more upscale you go, the more restrictive they get. My personal favorite is one community I know of bans the use of motorcycles. Yes, that's right - you can't ride a motorcycle in the community. I found this out because some friends live there who are avid bikers,. This means they have to trailer their bikes outside of the community before they can ride them.
They typically do this anyway, as around here riding in the built up areas requires a death wish due to the inattentive drivers. As a result, a lot of recreational riders will trailer their bikes to more rural areas and ride there.
I just thought it was pretty crazy myself. You own a home that's worth upwards of half a million dollars and you can't even ride your motorcycle to/from it....
RM
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