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Almost every house built 1980s and later has a perimeter drain system which sends all the water into the basement sump pit, where it gets pumped out. All it takes is anything to go wrong, and your basement starts filling up with water. Failed pump is the usual culprit, but I've seen a simple tripped circuit breaker do the job of putting 2' of water in a 1500 sq. ft. basement. Also if it gets very cold, the outside end of the sump drain in the yard can freeze, causing guaranteed floods.
Right, but isn't that why many people buy a back-up sump pump? So when your normal one fails or the power goes out the back-up takes over. Most people I've known who have had basements for many years invest in a back-up option (there's a variety of kinds as you're probably aware of). And yes, when it get's cold the water line outside will freeze so you just disconnect it during the colder seasons to prevent any issues (granted when it's cold out your sump pump won't run as often). This happened to us in Chicago once during the spring when it rained a lot and then got real cold one night. But it was a one time occurrence.
Crawl spaces are pretty much only used for storage and emergencies (can't think of any other uses). They're also nice to have for tornado weather, but then again, generally crawl spaces aren't as low (as a typical basement) so you're not as well protected. A finished basement, though a greater liability, can be used daily as a multi-purpose living space. Obviously it's up to the buyer to weigh the risk of potential flooding (against mitigating it) but I think for most people, families especially the additional living space is GREAT.
Kluch,
Crawl spaces are GREAT to have if you want to do a little remodeling! I put in a second bathroom and the crawl space made it an easy operation. Also: Running speaker wires or moving a cable box. Hey, I'm an old guy pre wifi and bluetooth.
This is not a common design in newer homes. Some older houses were built in a way where no pump is needed. Basically building a basement near ground level and adding dirt all the way around the house. However, this is more expensive, requires a larger property, and the builders here aren't doing it.
Right, but isn't that why many people buy a back-up sump pump? So when your normal one fails or the power goes out the back-up takes over. Most people I've known who have had basements for many years invest in a back-up option (there's a variety of kinds as you're probably aware of). And yes, when it get's cold the water line outside will freeze so you just disconnect it during the colder seasons to prevent any issues (granted when it's cold out your sump pump won't run as often). This happened to us in Chicago once during the spring when it rained a lot and then got real cold one night. But it was a one time occurrence.
That is not how it works. Most people have what is called a "battery backup," which buys you a few hours if you lose power. It does nothing for you if the pump quits on you, which is roughly every 3-8 years. Hardly anyone has a functional backup sump pump with a separate pit. Most houses that have two sump pits have a larger drain system that is designed to handle more water, and both of these pumps must remain operational. Usually these two pumps are next to each other and on the same circuit, smh. Many floods occur when one of these quits working, and the other one that has been carrying the weight finally fails during heavy rains. And you do not want to disconnect your sump pump in a situation like that without manually placing another means of removing incoming water in your sump pit, lest your basement begin to flood.
It's nothing against basements. Obviously they are more practical in most ways. I am merely stating the numerous and often neglected downsides of this foundation type in this particular area, particularly the additional costs, such as the battery backup, replacing the pumps, paying for insurance writers, and paying a deductible/possibly losing personal property in a water damage. Carmel is notorious for basement floods.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheerbliss
That doesn't sound at all like my house.
That's very interesting. I've worked in thousands of homes in the greater Indianapolis area and have only seen a no-drain, no pump basement system applied a handful of times. One house was around the 75th and Shadeland area, and was built on kind of a hill. They said it was their first flood in 40 years. One was the home of a family of architects in the Brownsburg area, and was built as I tried to describe. It was their first flood in 30 years. The other couple were very small, unfinished basements that did flood once every 5-10 years or so or during high water conditions. Any basement in Central IN with no sump pump/pit/perimeter drain system that actually stays dry during flood conditions is very unusual, and I suppose should be considered a blessing, but I'd still be careful because I've technically never seen a basement like this that has never flooded!
Last edited by Last Second Larry; 12-16-2021 at 08:30 PM..
I had a 4,000 sf home with a basement that had two sump pumps. Even in the driest part of the year if you removed the cover from the sumps (there were two) you could hear water trickling. Both sumps had backup pumps and I had a whole house emergency generator, but neither of these prevented issues. Why?
Because the idiot plumber that ran the piping for the sump pumps made two mistakes:
1.) They had both sump pumps, running 1-1/2" PVC, combined into a "Y" near the point where a single pipe exited the foundation and went outside to a catch basin. Duh! The total volume of both pumps running at the same time exceeded the amount of water that could move through a single 1-1/2" pipe. In extreme conditions with both pumps running, they couldn't push enough water out because of this restriction.
2.) The pipe that ran from the foundation to the catch basin in the back yard was nearly 150' long. And guess what? They used the same 1-1/2" PVC to make that 150' run. Anyone with even the most basic understanding of piping and fluid/gas flow would understand that due to the distance involved you would have to increase the diameter of the pipe to accommodate the volume of water.
The place was doomed to flood, and it did, and I'm sure it has continued to. Had I stayed in the house I would have split the runs from the pumps and run both into at least a 4" line to the catch basin. If this had been designed and constructed properly it wouldn't have been an issue.
I had a 4,000 sf home with a basement that had two sump pumps. Even in the driest part of the year if you removed the cover from the sumps (there were two) you could hear water trickling.
This is very common, especially on the far north side/Carmel area. One year (maybe 2013?) we had a months long summer drought, all lawns were parched and water consumption notices had gone out, and there were still basements flooding in Carmel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MortonR
Because the idiot plumber that ran the piping for the sump pumps made...mistakes
Unfortunately this is more common than tornadoes, floods, rain, clouds, and sunshine combined. Pro tip: there is an inverse correlation between the robustness of a plumbing company's marketing, and the quality of a plumber. There are exceptions, but typically the best plumbers drive white vans with no markings, and would probably not admit to being a plumber if asked; these plumbers can only be accessed through "knowaguy."
Quote:
Originally Posted by MortonR
1.) They had both sump pumps, running 1-1/2" PVC, combined into a "Y" near the point where a single pipe exited the foundation and went outside to a catch basin
That is an unfortunate but all-too-common design. I have even seen 3 pumps terminate into a single drain, in a finished basement that had flooded no less than 4 times! The only thing defense I could possibly offer is that to run a second drain outside of the house is a lot more time and materials than combining into one, and once presented both options and price tags, at the end of the day it's the customer that makes the decision, which is what happened in that case. Either way, I don't even think these options should be presented, and if the builders are still doing this, the residential building codes should be changed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MortonR
2.) The pipe that ran from the foundation to the catch basin in the back yard was nearly 150' long. And guess what? They used the same 1-1/2" PVC to make that 150' run. Anyone with even the most basic understanding of piping and fluid/gas flow would understand that due to the distance involved you would have to increase the diameter of the pipe to accommodate the volume of water.
This is kind of my point. 1 1/2" pipe through the yard carrying 2 pumps worth of water 150' is completely ridiculous, but not uncommon enough here. A 4000 sq. ft. home should never have had these major errors in systems design. Lots of blame to go around. First and foremost the home builders should be blamed for trying to save money in the wrong places. Building codes are lax and inspectors miss stuff all the time. Shoddy, overhyped plumbing companies that hire unlicensed rookies and just throw them out in the field is also a growing problem. Also homeowners, flippers, landlords, etc. can legally do pretty much anything to their own home.
Many people with finished basements don't really know what they bought until the rain starts pouring and it starts to fill up. Just look at the sheer amount of "water damage restoration" vans/trucks on the streets, compared to other cities. Statistically it's a lot more, and unsuspecting basement owners are the reason. Flooded finished basements are meat and potatoes for dozens of companies, and dessert for a couple dozen others. This situation is many, many times more common than tornado damage in central IN. The space seems great but it's only as good as your plumbing/waterproofing.
Also check your insurance writers (unless you can comfortably self-insure your basement and everything in it), especially if your mechanicals (furnace, water heater, W/D) are down there. You should have anywhere from $10k (low end build, 600-800 sq. ft., no furnace down there) to $50k in water backup coverage, depending on the size, build, fixtures and contents. $5k just doesn't cover it anymore, but they still sell the policies!
Sure, as long as you understand that it is more expensive to build, much more expensive to repair, much more expensive to insure, higher maintenance, and will almost undoubtedly flood eventually. Multiply all of that if the basement has a bathroom, which means your basement likely has a lift station in addition to a sump pump, which means you are likely to deal with a sewer backup in your basement at some point--far more likely than a tornado. That's two major possibilities of major house damage (sewer backup is much more severe, obviously), one tripped circuit or failed pump away, at all times. Crawl spaces have 0 of these downsides and are practically no maintenance. Just my professional $.02
That's very interesting. I've worked in thousands of homes in the greater Indianapolis area and have only seen a no-drain, no pump basement system applied a handful of times. One house was around the 75th and Shadeland area, and was built on kind of a hill. They said it was their first flood in 40 years. One was the home of a family of architects in the Brownsburg area, and was built as I tried to describe. It was their first flood in 30 years. The other couple were very small, unfinished basements that did flood once every 5-10 years or so or during high water conditions. Any basement in Central IN with no sump pump/pit/perimeter drain system that actually stays dry during flood conditions is very unusual, and I suppose should be considered a blessing, but I'd still be careful because I've technically never seen a basement like this that has never flooded!
This is very common, especially on the far north side/Carmel area. One year (maybe 2013?) we had a months long summer drought, all lawns were parched and water consumption notices had gone out, and there were still basements flooding in Carmel.
Unfortunately this is more common than tornadoes, floods, rain, clouds, and sunshine combined. Pro tip: there is an inverse correlation between the robustness of a plumbing company's marketing, and the quality of a plumber. There are exceptions, but typically the best plumbers drive white vans with no markings, and would probably not admit to being a plumber if asked; these plumbers can only be accessed through "knowaguy."
That is an unfortunate but all-too-common design. I have even seen 3 pumps terminate into a single drain, in a finished basement that had flooded no less than 4 times! The only thing defense I could possibly offer is that to run a second drain outside of the house is a lot more time and materials than combining into one, and once presented both options and price tags, at the end of the day it's the customer that makes the decision, which is what happened in that case. Either way, I don't even think these options should be presented, and if the builders are still doing this, the residential building codes should be changed.
This is kind of my point. 1 1/2" pipe through the yard carrying 2 pumps worth of water 150' is completely ridiculous, but not uncommon enough here. A 4000 sq. ft. home should never have had these major errors in systems design. Lots of blame to go around. First and foremost the home builders should be blamed for trying to save money in the wrong places. Building codes are lax and inspectors miss stuff all the time. Shoddy, overhyped plumbing companies that hire unlicensed rookies and just throw them out in the field is also a growing problem. Also homeowners, flippers, landlords, etc. can legally do pretty much anything to their own home.
Many people with finished basements don't really know what they bought until the rain starts pouring and it starts to fill up. Just look at the sheer amount of "water damage restoration" vans/trucks on the streets, compared to other cities. Statistically it's a lot more, and unsuspecting basement owners are the reason. Flooded finished basements are meat and potatoes for dozens of companies, and dessert for a couple dozen others. This situation is many, many times more common than tornado damage in central IN. The space seems great but it's only as good as your plumbing/waterproofing.
Also check your insurance writers (unless you can comfortably self-insure your basement and everything in it), especially if your mechanicals (furnace, water heater, W/D) are down there. You should have anywhere from $10k (low end build, 600-800 sq. ft., no furnace down there) to $50k in water backup coverage, depending on the size, build, fixtures and contents. $5k just doesn't cover it anymore, but they still sell the policies!
I am being purposefully vague here, as the issues I reference were not remediated while I owned the property and likely occurred again the next time there was a significant rain. I bought the house in a bank sale and had damage from flooding remediated at the time of purchase, so the issue was known but not clearly identified. We made the assumption that the basement flooded because the bank had the power turned off. I later finished the basement as it had been originally, then started to encounter a flood condition as described, which is when I realized the plumbing for the sump pumps was seriously borked. To alleviate the issue on the spot I simply went outside and took a hacksaw to the PVC on the outside of the foundation so I at least allowed as much volume as possible to flow despite it being right next to the house. After things settled down I did further inspection to determine that the run to the catch basin was not sized appropriately.
Then I sold the house (not because of this, but because I was relocating.) Fortunately, it was sold as-is.
Suffice to say had I remained in the house I would have sorted all this out. Interesting postscript - the new owner did some major work in the back yard after they purchased the place, and in doing so had to disturb the pipe run to the catch basin. I wonder if they made any changes to it?
RM
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That doesn't sound at all like my house.
