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The 'Birmingham Koran' fragment that could shake Islam after carbon-dating suggests it is OLDER than the Prophet Muhammad
Fragments of the oldest Koran were discovered last month in Birmingham
Carbon dating found the pages were produced between 568AD and 654AD
But several historians now say that the parchment may predate Muhammad
They believe that this discovery could rewrite the early history of Islam
Historian Tom Holland, told the Times: 'It destabilises, to put it mildly, the idea that we can know anything with certainty about how the Koran emerged - and that in turn has implications for the history of Muhammad and the Companions.'
The 'Birmingham Koran' fragment that could shake Islam after carbon-dating suggests it is OLDER than the Prophet Muhammad
Fragments of the oldest Koran were discovered last month in Birmingham
Carbon dating found the pages were produced between 568AD and 654AD
But several historians now say that the parchment may predate Muhammad
They believe that this discovery could rewrite the early history of Islam
Historian Tom Holland, told the Times: 'It destabilises, to put it mildly, the idea that we can know anything with certainty about how the Koran emerged - and that in turn has implications for the history of Muhammad and the Companions.'
The truth will always prevails.
You're kidding I never ever had the slightest doubt that the basics of Muhammad thinking up Islam (and the concepts being refined, edited and committed to the best poetry the Ummayads could contrive) and written down later (Islam itself doesn't claim that the Quran was anything but oral tradition plus a few lines scratched on bits of wood or leather..but in unearthly divine - type poetry mind.).
But of course C14 CAN be wrong (1) and we must be cautious. And indeed those dates at the upper end get within Muhammad's time if not Ummayad, don't they? Let me check...
right Muhammad's first revelations are dated around 610 AD (Western calendar) Death of Muhammad 632. 634 Umar becomes Caliph. Uthman becomes Caliph 644. Compilation of the Quran. 650.AD. Oddly I have seen it dated 661 on. That's wrong. Ali followed Uthman, assassinated in 656 and Ali was assassinated in 661.
So clearly the upper end of the C14 date puts it not only after the time of Muhammad but squarely in the date -area when the Quran was codified by Uthman. Only if the dates are reliably put earlier than that are there going to be serious worries.
(1) which is to say not that C14 dating is not reliable or at least very useful and in fact is pretty accurate but can be affected by contamination. As I understand it it this is done by extra C14 being added through bacteria being applied, through handling with sweaty hands for instance. That would then give the impression that there was more c14 than there should be in the actual material. This then gives a younger false date. Never an older. To do that, you would have to remove the C14 and short of bombarding with gamma rays, I don't know how you could do it. (2)
So really this means that the Birmingham Quran could be of the correct Ummayad date, if it isn't made any younger by cleaning up the C14 dating.
(2) cue the mussel -shells. The way a false date can occur is when the living critter is absorbing less carbon (and thus C14) than it should. There is thus less c14 than we would expect and would give the impression that more had leaked away and thus had been around a lot longer than it actually had. When you know what the problem is, it is not a problem.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 09-01-2015 at 05:42 AM..
The 'Birmingham Koran' fragment that could shake Islam after carbon-dating suggests it is OLDER than the Prophet Muhammad
Fragments of the oldest Koran were discovered last month in Birmingham
Carbon dating found the pages were produced between 568AD and 654AD
But several historians now say that the parchment may predate Muhammad
They believe that this discovery could rewrite the early history of Islam
Historian Tom Holland, told the Times: 'It destabilises, to put it mildly, the idea that we can know anything with certainty about how the Koran emerged - and that in turn has implications for the history of Muhammad and the Companions.'
The truth will always prevails.
So from now on - you won't blame Muhammad (saw) for writing quran. Looks like the writer is someone else.
Let's see how much of an integrity do you have?
So from now on - you won't blame Muhammad (saw) for writing quran. Looks like the writer is someone else.
Let's see how much of an integrity do you have?
Actually it could be easy to date the earliest date by the script. The dates, the various scripts, developed are pretty well documented and if the picture is a picture of the actual fragment, it does not appear to be 6th or 7ty Century Hijazi script the letters are too free flowing, looks more like Kufic or very late Hijazi
Seems the article is in Islam's favor as it is in line with estimates of when the Qurans were written during Umar's time. Tom Holland has for years stated the Quran came years and decades after Prophet Muhammad. Now that this shows the opposite, he creates a sensationalist headline.
You're kidding I never ever had the slightest doubt that the basics of Muhammad thinking up Islam (and the concepts being refined, edited and committed to the best poetry the Ummayads could contrive) and written down later (Islam itself doesn't claim that the Quran was anything but oral tradition plus a few lines scratched on bits of wood or leather..but in unearthly divine - type poetry mind.).
But of course C14 CAN be wrong (1) and we must be cautious. And indeed those dates at the upper end get within Muhammad's time if not Ummayad, don't they? Let me check...
right Muhammad's first revelations are dated around 610 AD (Western calendar) Death of Muhammad 632. 634 Umar becomes Caliph. Uthman becomes Caliph 644. Compilation of the Quran. 650.AD. Oddly I have seen it dated 661 on. That's wrong. Ali followed Uthman, assassinated in 656 and Ali was assassinated in 661.
'best poetry' ???
Per the Quran, Muhammad did not have high regard for poets and poetry. That was because the poets of the day wrote poems to mock Muhammad's claims of prophethood and it is most likely he knew he was guilty.
What is praised is its arrangement for reading as a hymn [mentally and psychologically soothing].
Yes C14 can be wrong. Let's await the final confirmation.
If the Birmingham is confirmed to be before 610AD and long before than, then it prove that the current claim that the Quran was directly from God through Gabriel and recited by Muhammad was false.
I think this is most likely given the following circumstances;
1. It is impossible for God to exists, there was no God whispering to Gabriel and onto Muhammad, thus no such God initiated Quran.
2. Ever since humans emerged on Earth there has always been a very small percentile of humans who had experiences of altered states of consciousness. Many of these claims to have relations with the supernatural and God. Many become shamans and later cult leaders and religious founders.
3. If there is a Muhammad who recited a Quran, then he was one of those in 2 above. Muhammad's altered state experiences are recorded in the Quran, Sira, Hadiths and elsewhere. In such a case the Quran was never from God [impossibility re 1 above] but rather from a man who had a personal interest to express his altered states.
4. Even since 2,000 years ago those in 3 and who are spiritual and religious inclined were "blogging" the experiences and views. So it is no surprised there were religious writings which were like those to the Quran long prior to 610 AD.
The Torah and Bible predicted the coming of the Messiah and there would have been many who hope to claim to be the Messiah. Muhammad could have been one of them and he could have access to the many writings available during his days.
5. The other alternative of how the Quran came about is the Quran was compiled as a holy book of a new religion by a group of leaders to unite and CONTROL a already conquered and expanding empire. Theistic religion using God as the ultimate controller is the most effective and have been used ever since till the present.
One thing that I am very certain is '100% certainty God do not exist' thus the Quran [whichever way it came about] cannot be from a non-existing God.
However if one were to study deeply into the psychological reasons for theism, it is most likely God was invented as a ideal and balm to deal with the inherent existential dilemma and it terrible pains.
Seems the article is in Islam's favor as it is in line with estimates of when the Qurans were written during Umar's time. Tom Holland has for years stated the Quran came years and decades after Prophet Muhammad. Now that this shows the opposite, he creates a sensationalist headline.
Holland claimed the 'completed' Quran of semblance to the current one came years after Muhammad. This completed Quran could have been compiled later but the various parts and writings were from perhaps a hundred years before Muhammad. This is possible for those chronologically early chapters which are mostly related to eschatological matters and Biblical stories [full of errors from those of the Christian Bibles]. Many of these chapters are very short and thus could be written any time prior to Muhammad's time.
The Bible has a long history of many years before 610AD and yet the Biblical stories told in the Quran were crude and full of errors.
So it is true the completed Quran came many years and decades after Muhammad but the various bits it was compiled from could come from decades or > a century before Muhammad.
Holland claimed the 'completed' Quran of semblance to the current one came years after Muhammad. This completed Quran could have been compiled later but the various parts and writings were from perhaps a hundred years before Muhammad. This is possible for those chronologically early chapters which are mostly related to eschatological matters and Biblical stories [full of errors from those of the Christian Bibles]. Many of these chapters are very short and thus could be written any time prior to Muhammad's time.
The Bible has a long history of many years before 610AD and yet the Biblical stories told in the Quran were crude and full of errors.
So it is true the completed Quran came many years and decades after Muhammad but the various bits it was compiled from could come from decades or > a century before Muhammad.
Except yhe Script used did not exist until after 610 and had evolved into Kufic script by 650. This is a transitional script showing the change from Hijasi to Kufic. Most likely existing only afew years after 610 and before 645 It can be considered as either very late Hijazi or very Early Kufic. When I first saw it I thought it was Kufic
Except yhe Script used did not exist until after 610 and had evolved into Kufic script by 650. This is a transitional script showing the change from Hijasi to Kufic. Most likely existing only afew years after 610 and before 645 It can be considered as either very late Hijazi or very Early Kufic. When I first saw it I thought it was Kufic
Where is the proof the script used did not exist until after 610 AD?
If the carbon dating can prove that Script is dated much beyond 610AD it will prove whatever type that script is, it existed during that time.
Note the circumstances I listed to show why the Quran cannot be from God and it is most likely compiled from various bits and pieces of writing before Muhammad.
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I never ever had the slightest doubt that the basics of Muhammad thinking up Islam (and the concepts being refined, edited and committed to the best poetry the Ummayads could contrive) and written down later (Islam itself doesn't claim that the Quran was anything but oral tradition plus a few lines scratched on bits of wood or leather..but in unearthly divine - type poetry mind.).
