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It is not about 15 min fame or getting on news. Its about awareness. If this loud mouth jerk said rude things to this girl without anyone questioning him, next time he will do the same to someone else & then someone else. Soon he will feel so good about yelling/telling off young Muslim's that one day his desire/hate could escalate to physically attacking them (like that guy that shoot 3 Muslim student in NCS). Or the reverse he could be bullying this young girl every time she walks on campus that she seeks revenge.
By the same token, the same can be said for these same two female college students, who are part of an anti-Israel movement on the UT campus. If they feel it's ok to enter a conference and shout down an invited professor holding a speech, what could be next in their future? In their culture, people are killed for dissenting opinion all the time. So what's the difference then between a disgruntled guy and two disgruntled women?
I hate to even pause on this one... on the one hand I feel sorry for these 2 women. On the other hand, I can't help but feel surprised that they're so surprised this happened - given the news lately. They're putting themselves out there by wearing those scarves and making a statement. They have a right to do it, but if someone doesn't like it, it makes the news.
If Islamic cultists feel like they have to put on potato sack over their head, they need to know this is going to only help evoke fears of terror in peoples' hearts. Just look at that cutie who killed 14 people with her inbred husband. She looked menacing in that attire. I wouldn't want to be near one of these crazies either.
Let's keep things in perspective here. Some loud mouthed jerk said some hurtful things to the women. They expected both the manager and the patrons eating their meals to go to bat for them in response. They didn't get the support they felt was warranted, and left angry.
The manager should have asked the loudmouth to leave. That was the only mistake they made. An inexperienced shift manager who didn't know how best to handle the matter.
The patrons weren't under any obligation to strike up a battle with an unknown person. The women were wrong to expect them to involve themselves, then get angry when they wouldn't.
It's not against the law to be an ahole and say stupid things. These were hurtful words, not a physical attack. There is a difference! The women exchanged words back, and did not appear to be in harm.
The women in question are UT students who happen to be part of a growing anti-Israel movement on campus. They recently participated in a protest during an Israeli professor's speech there, effectively cutting him off and not allowing him to speak. So now they got a little taste of the *other* side of free speech. At the end of the day, this was nothing more than an exchange of hurtful words.
This is a non-issue.
While I don't know your background/biases I think this throws an interesting light on the situation. If one or both of these women are well known for anti Israeli activities it would not be surprising that someone who knows their reputation would call them out for it. If it was a random jerk going off because of headscarves and appearances I am completely against that.
Hurtful words are not comparative to physical assault. If this is the basis for your argument, you are clearly in over your head among people who can interpret events and subsequent response in a more accurate and articulate fashion.
Actaully people also claimed that she was looking for her 15 minutes of fame as well. The problem is verbal assults desensitise others so that the more extreme ones move on to believing the they can further. I am not sure what should happen here but if the women simply kept quiet and it was not in the news then at least the people in the resturant especially the bigot who spoke those words would have the feedback that verbally harrassing Muslms is fine in society. Is that the message you want to send. Pointing out in public when others harrass you or people who are near you and the public voicing that the harrassment behaviour is unacceptable is the way to minimize the offensive behaviour.
The response to Muslims after Paris or SB is quite different than the response to anti abortion people after Colorado Springs or to white supremests after the shooting in the Black church. The shootings by blacks is also viewed differently than the shootings by whites. The women acted correctly, the poster claiming that they were not human not so.
Hurtful words are not comparative to physical assault. If this is the basis for your argument, you are clearly in over your head among people who can interpret events and subsequent response in a more accurate and articulate fashion.
Who was making a comparison? Where did I say they were the same thing? Once again, another petty, inaccurate insult from behind a computer screen. You must feel so big.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bg7
No - there is a clear distinction between freedom of thought and speech - and actions. There is not freedom of actions when they violate someone else's rights. But you can basically say and think what you want.
You can believe that people who are apostates from Islam, or who refuse to recognize Allah, should be killed. But you can't go and kill them.
Speech and thought - freedom
Actions - limited.
You don't see how it creates a slippery slope? One poster already alluded to this, no one said anything, which allows people to continue to say what they say, and then possibly turn those words into actions. Were there any laws broken? No, but it creates a slippery slope, today it's a verbal assault, next time it's what happened to the woman in Canada. Where do we draw the line?
And once again, that deflects from the point that I was making, entirely. Whether you curse out someone because they're Muslim, or beat them to a pulp, you're anger and frustration is misdirected. People like this gentlemen aren't improving an already frustrating and tense situation by taking it out on citizens. All it does is create more division and alienate more people, playing right into the hands of the bad guys, who are probably salivating at the dissension in this country, as I type this.
Actaully people also claimed that she was looking for her 15 minutes of fame as well. The problem is verbal assults desensitise others so that the more extreme ones move on to believing the they can further. I am not sure what should happen here but if the women simply kept quiet and it was not in the news then at least the people in the resturant especially the bigot who spoke those words would have the feedback that verbally harrassing Muslms is fine in society. Is that the message you want to send. Pointing out in public when others harrass you or people who are near you and the public voicing that the harrassment behaviour is unacceptable is the way to minimize the offensive behaviour.
The response to Muslims after Paris or SB is quite different than the response to anti abortion people after Colorado Springs or to white supremests after the shooting in the Black church. The shootings by blacks is also viewed differently than the shootings by whites. The women acted correctly, the poster claiming that they were not human not so.
Sometimes, people just don't have the cognitive skills to understand the totality of an event like this, and only see it from a micro-level. Good post.
As a Liberal I feel if you are going to wear your religion on your sleeve (in this case your head), don't whine when your religion is discussed.
I will not respect Islam more than other religions, infact I will judge based on the abysmal human rights record in the vast numbers of Muslim countries.
Hurtful words are not comparative to physical assault. If this is the basis for your argument, you are clearly in over your head among people who can interpret events and subsequent response in a more accurate and articulate fashion.
There's a world of difference between spouting offensive things, and verbally attacking an individual. Assault is not a physical act. Battery is. Assault is the fear of a forthcoming attack.
While I don't know your background/biases I think this throws an interesting light on the situation. If one or both of these women are well known for anti Israeli activities it would not be surprising that someone who knows their reputation would call them out for it. If it was a random jerk going off because of headscarves and appearances I am completely against that.
I live in Austin and am familiar with the restaurant where this incident took place. My only bias is against crowd-think kneejerk reaction to events such as this. It's very important to read past headlines and be thoughtful and careful with ones' thinking in response to incidents like this. Lead with your head, not your heart.
I seriously doubt the man in question was familiar with their on-campus activities. He was probably just an idiot. I mentioned them because I feel it helps illustrate a point that these women were no shrinking helpless violets being beaten down by a mob of angry Muslim-haters. They are local college students with public Facebook pages who are part of an anti-Israel movement that is active in shooting down the free speech rights of visiting professors on their own campus, and yet they were very quick to run to the media to complain over hurtful words thrown their own way. Because at the end of the day, that is all this was ... hurtful words. Which are protected by our Constitution whether we like hearing them or not. I am concerned of the growing movement to stifle free speech that's not popular to certain groups. That's simply not how it works.
It is not a crime to be a jerk who shoots off at the mouth any more than it's a crime to enter a conference and scream and shout a speaker into silence. We shouldn't wag our finger at one example and offer sympathy and support for the other. These women are complaining about a random stranger saying hurtful things to them at the same time they are freely participating in protesting the free speech of campus alumni at their own school by shouting them down. One is not any worse than the other, and both are examples of the free speech afforded in this country. So at the end of the day, I find this all to be a blown-out-of-proportion non-issue. And I think most people who get all the facts first and leave emotional rhetoric out of the equation will probably agree.
Actually it IS a crime to verbally assault someone to the point where they feel threatened for their physical safety. It's Simple Assault. I'm not sure what part of this isn't clear. This isn't a "liberal bias" or anything else. I could give a crap either way, but the fact is, if you start yelling at someone and they feel afraid for their safety and that it could escalate to harm, you are committing assault.
It's a Class A Misdemeanor in Texas, but nonetheless, it is a crime. Voicing your opinion in a public forum is not the same as picking an individual an berating them directly.
I don't know why this is so complicated for people.
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