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I have a question about Islam that really has never been answered. There are a lot of threads right now discussing Islam, but I feel that I am most likely not the only American (or non muslim for that matter) who wonders about this......
I have learned that things such as honor killings and political murders are not accepted in Sharia law, rather they are either cultural or political.
However, seeing that honor killings specifically are more common in countries that follow sharia law --- well, how can this be? Wouldn't the fathers/ brothers/male relatives who murdered their daughter/sister/cousin in an honor killing be tried in sharia court? Wouldn't there be an outcry from religious scholars that this practice is an insult to Allah and should be stopped?
And what of the current murderous rampage between Shiites and Sunnis? Killing other muslims because they don't agree exactly as another sect ---- is this OK under Sharia law? Because if it is not, why are these people getting away with it? They are bombing innocent muslims at markets --- it cannot be argued they are killing US soldiers in war. So why no fatwas directed at the leaders of these bombings?
If I understand correctly, Sharia is suppossed to be used to keep a social order. Why is it being used selectively?
However, seeing that honor killings specifically are more common in countries that follow sharia law --- well, how can this be?
Did you know that honour killings in Europe during the Middle Ages are a common thing?
Duelling was something for the aristocracy, where the man had to defend his 'honour'. You could say that back then the aristocracy had their own sharia, which was not for commoners.
Because if a commoner would challenge an aristocrat he might pay for it with his life.
That of the 3 religions Judaism, Christianity and Muslims, the European Christians were the 1st to become secularised which started with the Age of Enlightenment. While this process for the American Christians and American Jews only started in the 20th century. I guess the Muslims still have to start their own process of secularisation, but in the Netherlands they are heading in the right direction.
However, seeing that honor killings specifically are more common in countries that follow sharia law
first of all , what is countries which follow sharia law you refer to ?
anyway did you know that honor killing accepted in bible ?
Lev 21:9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the *****, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.
And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. (Exodus 21:17)"
"For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him. (Leviticus 20:9)"
So here the children are put to death for insulting their parents, this is another example of honor killings, the children are put to death for dis-honoring their very own parents and the punishment is death.
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Wouldn't the fathers/ brothers/male relatives who murdered their daughter/sister/cousin in an honor killing be tried in sharia court?
this kind of crimes is caused of edgy
and it happend in many countries with many culturals
In India, for example, many such murders are committed by Hindus and Sikhs. For some Hindus, an honour killing may be motivated by a woman marrying across caste boundaries.
Honour killing also happens in Christian communities in the Mediterranean and other regions. The culture of Ancient Rome allowed the father to kill his children if he deemed necessary. Honour killing was only abolished as a specific category in Italy in 1981, and murders in the name of honour still occur in the country. In 2006, Bruna Morito was shot six times in the face by her brother for bearing a child outside marriage. In Brazil, men could be acquitted for murdering their wives up until 1991, and there have been 800 recorded such murders in a single year. Even in 1991, a lower court ignored the ruling of the Supreme Court and acquitted Joao Lopes for the double homicide of his wife and her lover. In fact, the opposition of the woman as the vessel of familial honour and the man as its protector was widespread throughout the southern European region, although it is not clear how many murders are committed in the name of honour at the present time.
In Yemen, a Jewish father killed his daughter after a rebuke from the rabbi for her extra-marital pregnancy, and in Palestine, in 2005, Faten Habash was beaten to death with an iron bar, wielded by her Christian father because she wanted to marry her Muslim boyfriend.
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Wouldn't there be an outcry from religious scholars that this practice is an insult to Allah and should be stopped?
are you searched and didn't find relegious scholars condemn these crimes ?
Honor Killing from an Islamic Perspective - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar (http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543392 - broken link)
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And what of the current murderous rampage between Shiites and Sunnis? Killing other muslims because they don't agree exactly as another sect ---- is this OK under Sharia law? Because if it is not, why are these people getting away with it?
is Iraq under sharia law ?
is Iraq good example to judge on thier actions nowadays ?
were there suicide bombers in iraq before USA invades ?
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They are bombing innocent muslims at markets --- it cannot be argued they are killing US soldiers in war. So why no fatwas directed at the leaders of these bombings?
USA succeeded to arise civilian wars between muslisms and shiits
anyway , muslims over the world are not happy with that , it's a big mistake ,
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If I understand correctly, Sharia is suppossed to be used to keep a social order. Why is it being used selectively?
Because Muslims nations still have to start with secularisation; the seperation between church and state. As far as I know Turkey is still the only muslim nation that has a democracy? Besides, I don't believe that America and Israel are as secularised as most European countries.
Originally Posted by camping!Did you know that honour killings in Europe during the Middle Ages are a common thing?
Duelling was something for the aristocracy, where the man had to defend his 'honour'. You could say that back then the aristocracy had their own sharia, which was not for commoners.
Because if a commoner would challenge an aristocrat he might pay for it with his life.
That of the 3 religions Judaism, Christianity and Muslims, the European Christians were the 1st to become secularised which started with the Age of Enlightenment. While this process for the American Christians and American Jews only started in the 20th century. I guess the Muslims still have to start their own process of secularisation, but in the Netherlands they are heading in the right direction.
Yeah, I know that horrible things occured in the middle ages, but I am talking about now.
Do you think that there is any excuse to behave in a manner more befitting the fifth century then the twenty-first? Not being snarky, Tricky -- I would like to know.....
first of all , what is countries which follow sharia law you refer to ?
anyway did you know that honor killing accepted in bible ?
Lev 21:9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the *****, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.
And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. (Exodus 21:17)"
"For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him. (Leviticus 20:9)"
So here the children are put to death for insulting their parents, this is another example of honor killings, the children are put to death for dis-honoring their very own parents and the punishment is death.
this kind of crimes is caused of edgy
and it happend in many countries with many culturals
In India, for example, many such murders are committed by Hindus and Sikhs. For some Hindus, an honour killing may be motivated by a woman marrying across caste boundaries.
Honour killing also happens in Christian communities in the Mediterranean and other regions. The culture of Ancient Rome allowed the father to kill his children if he deemed necessary. Honour killing was only abolished as a specific category in Italy in 1981, and murders in the name of honour still occur in the country. In 2006, Bruna Morito was shot six times in the face by her brother for bearing a child outside marriage. In Brazil, men could be acquitted for murdering their wives up until 1991, and there have been 800 recorded such murders in a single year. Even in 1991, a lower court ignored the ruling of the Supreme Court and acquitted Joao Lopes for the double homicide of his wife and her lover. In fact, the opposition of the woman as the vessel of familial honour and the man as its protector was widespread throughout the southern European region, although it is not clear how many murders are committed in the name of honour at the present time.
In Yemen, a Jewish father killed his daughter after a rebuke from the rabbi for her extra-marital pregnancy, and in Palestine, in 2005, Faten Habash was beaten to death with an iron bar, wielded by her Christian father because she wanted to marry her Muslim boyfriend.
are you searched and didn't find relegious scholars condemn these crimes ?
Honor Killing from an Islamic Perspective - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar (http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543392 - broken link)
is Iraq under sharia law ?
is Iraq good example to judge on thier actions nowadays ?
were there suicide bombers in iraq before USA invades ?
USA succeeded to arise civilian wars between muslisms and shiits
anyway , muslims over the world are not happy with that , it's a big mistake ,
what do you mean ?
Elwill, the difference between honor killings in the Islam world, and murders done in the West is that those murderers you mentioned were tried by the law of the land. The murderers of women killed in Islamic countries are not tried for their crimes.
I ask again, in countries that practice Sharia law (and I would put Saudia Arabia, Afganistan, Pakistan, Iran, and Syria as well as Egypt and Palestine to a lesser extent. If I am wrong, please correct me) how are honor killings in good conscience defended?
Unless by pointing out parts of the Judeo-Christian bible that OKs the murder of ones child that the Quran also accepts it. In which case, you were not very honest with me in an earlier discussion where you intimated that honor killings had no place in Islam, that it was cultural only.
As far as suicide bombings, lets take Iraq out of the equation. How about the suicide bombings in Malayasia? I thought that country was becoming increasingly conservative ala sharia law, but I could very well be mistaken.
Thank you for the link of what Islamic scholars have to say. I just wonder why they are not being listened to?
Elwill, the difference between honor killings in the Islam world, and murders done in the West is that those murderers you mentioned were tried by the law of the land.
why did you called it honor killing with muslims and murders with the west , they are all murders and they are all killed for the same reasons , and both of them are crimes happened by persons not by court , i cant see any differences
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The murderers of women killed in Islamic countries are not tried for their crimes.
i don't know what happen in each country , but under sharia they must tried for thier crimes , in my country (egypt) they are tried for thier crimes
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I ask again, in countries that practice Sharia law (and I would put Saudia Arabia, Afganistan, Pakistan, Iran, and Syria as well as Egypt and Palestine to a lesser extent.
unfortunatly there are no shariah in egypt nor syria nor palaestine .
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Unless by pointing out parts of the Judeo-Christian bible that OKs the murder of ones child that the Quran also accepts it.
quran didn't
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In which case, you were not very honest with me in an earlier discussion where you intimated that honor killings had no place in Islam, that it was cultural only.
i insist in my openion
but the discussion is open , if you think that i'm not honest with you so inform me if i hide somthing about islam from you , you are wellcome to clear your point
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As far as suicide bombings, lets take Iraq out of the equation. How about the suicide bombings in Malayasia? I thought that country was becoming increasingly conservative ala sharia law, but I could very well be mistaken.
i havn't personal knowledge about existence of bombing in malayasia
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Thank you for the link of what Islamic scholars have to say. I just wonder why they are not being listened to?
scholars always say not to theft not to kill not to commit adultery
but there are always some of people not listenning.
who commit honor killing , do it as a revenge for his honor , not as an obdience for God .
thiefs know that thier acts are bad , killer know that also , honor killers know that it's evil deeds also
Do you think that there is any excuse to behave in a manner more befitting the fifth century then the twenty-first? Not being snarky, Tricky -- I would like to know.....
I agree with elwill:
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why did you called it honor killing with muslims and murders with the west , they are all murders and they are all killed for the same reasons , and both of them are crimes happened by persons not by court , i cant see any differences
Murder is murder. But I guess Americans would call state sanctioned killings (executions) patriotism and the bombing of abortion clinics 'righteous'?
Originally Posted by camping! I agree with elwill:Murder is murder. But I guess Americans would call state sanctioned killings (executions) patriotism and the bombing of abortion clinics 'righteous'?
No Tricky, Americans do not call bombings of abortion clinics righteous........are you suffering under the delusion that abortion clinics get bombed on a weekly basis? Monthly? Yearly? There was a spate of them, it was horrible but the guy responsible was caught, tried and is now doing time . It was not sanctioned by any religion.
Do you get your information on American society by watching Die Hard movies? Your ignorance on the US is appalling ----- by the way oh great learned one on all things American, have you figured out who Ron Paul is yet?
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You could say that back then the aristocracy had their own sharia, which was not for commoners. 
I guess the Muslims still have to start their own process of secularisation, but in the Netherlands they are heading in the right direction.
