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It's as set in stone as it can be. Our house here in St. Louis is sold (in less than a week, woot). By October 20th my wife and I will be Jacksonvillians. This is a huge brain-dump touching on all of the thoughts, considerations, and talking-points that floated through our heads when deciding whether to move to Jax or stay here in StL. If you enjoy walls of text, read on. Otherwise, feel free to jump off the thread here.
Metro vs Metro
With all of the 'we include the county', 'we have more people' business it's hard to really tell who is the 'bigger' city based on numbers alone... but it's St. Louis. There is a larger downtown-to-midtown area and far higher population density heading out of the city. If you include the whole StL Metro area, East StL, St. Charles, Alton, etc there are a *lot* of people and businesses here. The distances from suburb to downtown don't seem to be much different but where you'll go through miles of trees and empty space heading down to Nocatee you'll be hard pressed to find an empty acre from downtown StL to Town and Country.
What does that mean, really? StL doesn't have the big-city amenities... public transportation is terrible. We have some nice parks and the zoo is great. But, compared with the beaches and river (which is actually usable; you'll grow a fifth limb if you swim in the Mississippi) I think we're on pretty even footing. We have 3 pro sports teams to Jax's 1 and if you like baseball, you'll love StL. Personally, baseball is boring as hell but to each their own.
StL does have a better university system. Washington University is one of the best in the nation, St. Louis University isn't far behind and even UMSL has a name beyond the region. The smaller universities in Jax don't really compete at that level however I don't foresee that being an issue for us in the next 20 years or so.
What both have in common is that both downtowns are extremely underutilized, I'd say St. Louis even more-so than Jax.
Employment
My wife is in finance, I am in technology. She was offered a relocation here which started the conversation otherwise Jacksonville wouldn't have been on our radar at all. So, it's me that needs to worry about a job. When doing similar job searches on indeed.com in my professional area and salary I come up with 1.5 to 4x as many matches in StL than in Jax. I'm not totally sure what to make of that since there may be 1/2 to 6x as many qualified candidates here. In working with recruiters it seems that the jobs picture in my field may be slightly dimmer and salaries a little lower in Jax than in StL but it's not as dismal as I would've initially suspected.
On a side note, my currently employer has extended the opportunity to telecommute so I'm solid no matter what.
Entertainment
This one may be a bit subjective. If you like to go to clubs and get 5h17 faced every weekend then StL is alright. If you love baseball (and to a FAR lesser extent Football or hockey), StL is alright. If you like to do just about anything else with your time, StL doesn't offer much. We do have casinos however they are pretty depressing. The arch is a once-in-a-lifetime visit. The Zoo and Forest Part in general are fantastic but if you don't live by them, you probably don't go there often. If you extend the range a bit there's hunting, fishing, and canoeing the rivers. The closest other metros are Kansas City (4hrs), Chicago (5hrs), and up from there.
On the JAX side there are miles and miles of beaches. I'm a beach guy... love 'em. Plenty to do on the rivers. And lots and lots of golf. Move that radius out a bit and you get the tourism of St Augustine, the parks in Orlando, up to the food of Savannah. Moving out the 4-5 hour range and we're down in Miami, over in Destin/PCB, etc. While Jax doesn't have the one-park-to-rule-them-all situation like Forest Park in StL, due to preservation laws and such the whole environment surrounding the city is far more pleasant than StL.
The big down side for me is that my sport is roller hockey. I've been playing since I was 12 and until a recent injury I played 4 days a week. There is pretty much NO roller hockey in Jax (save one league that plays with a ball on a roller skating rink). I'm phasing out hockey and phasing in golf to compensate.
Overall, the beach and almost-year-round pool is something my wife and I will take advantage of all of the time; almost every day. That adds more value to our lives than sports teams or great zoos.
Weather
StL weather sucks. I don't think I've been to place that the weather has sucked more to be honest. We get all four seasons here, that's true. We can hit 105 and -5 in the same year. Our highest monthly average high temp is 88 in July and our lowest monthly average low is 37 in Jan; a swing of 51 degrees. Jax's highest avg high is 91 in Jul and 64 in Jan; a swing of 27 degrees.
With swings as dramatic as those in StL we only have a few weeks of pleasant weather. The summer heat waves tend to sit on us, muggy yet without rain. The winter storms are more often sleet and freezing rain than snow. In Jax it gets hot and humid, no doubt. But there's an ocean breeze or two-hour downpour on it's way to cool things down. For someone who really enjoys both the hot and the cool, their pool and their snow skis, StL might be great. Personally, I'm looking forward to getting rid of most of my sweaters and heavy coats not to mention actually being able to go outside from November to February.
Housing
It sucks for JAX's economy but houses are a steal there. It certainly seems there was a much larger bubble and much louder burst in Jax than in StL. Over the past 4 years or so our home bubbled up about 20% or so beyond what we paid. What we are seeing in Jax is closer to 40%. It would also seem there are so many people under water and so many desperate builders it's almost cheaper to build than to buy.
It's an aside and personal opinion but I also really like the look of FL houses, stucco and pavers, vs the vinyl siding and concrete homes we see up here. We will miss our junk storage (aka basement) though.
Politics
After hearing the horror stories on here this one had me a little leery. I lean progressive. From what I have read Jacksonville is full of southern good 'ole boys who love their guns, and hate anything that's a different color... and taxes. In my brief time in Jax so far I do feel that impression is overstated however Jax does seem to posses more, let's say Southern Charm than StL does; and StL is already pretty charming. I'll vote how I vote, no doubt, but I might keep the yard signs to a minimum until I feel out the neighbors.
Other Considerations and Asides
Some other things that passed through our minds... Jax airport. It's a nicer (when they aren't doing construction) and more pleasant airport however Lambert International has many more directly flights to places we want to be. Given the amount we fly this is only a passing concern though.
Taxation is more friendly in FL than in StL which is nice.
The visitor factor... we live in StL. Our families live around StL. We'll meet up for a dinner now and again but for the most part these events are treated more as a burden than an opportunity. We are really hoping our family and friends visit us often. We can really make time for them, plan fun things to do, actually connect with them rather than just hitting up an Applebees and saying goodnight.
Anyway, given all of that we are really looking forward to a change of lifestyle and can't wait to get down to Florida!
I grew up in St Louis (Ladue actually) So I feel well versed in your comparisons
Metro:
Both very similar but St Louis has a more viable downtown urban center than Jacksonville does currently. Both MSA"s are similar but St Louis has more people by almost 2X( 2.9 million to 1.5 million.)
Employment:
I am almost positive that the job situation in the medical and tech fields are better in St Louis than in Jacksonville. But in the financial, insurance and service industries, I believe Jacksonville may be better.
Entertainment:
St Louis without a doubt. But not by all that much.
Jacksonville's Zoo is fantastic. but even though Jacksonville has a larger park system than St Louis, there is no one definitive park like Forest Park.
I used to love going to Lake St Louis and Lake of the Ozarks and KY Dam. but Jacksonville hands down is way better for water sports. (I have friend on here that takes me fishing offshore, the biggest thing I ever caught up there isn't quite up to "bait" size down here) But nothing beats the Ocean and river networks down here.
Weather:
Jacksonville without a doubt. By a whole bunch. In St Louis I have had rain, snow, hail, tornadoes, and a heat wave all in one afternoon. Down here it is usually nice most of the day(hot n humid) and then the afternoon rain shower rolls in for an hour or so without fail.
Housing:
According to friends there's not much difference, except housing cost's more in St Louis now because it cost so much more there before the collapse. They both have devalued about the same I am told.
Politics:
No comment, as I don't get involved. Politics have cost me dearly recently.
Other considerations:
again no comment as that's a personal thing.
Taxation:
Florida by a factor of 10, no city,county or state tax but there is that pesky sales tax that seems minuscule.
Visitor factor:
Move to Florida and you will have visitors. No doubt.
PS>>> if you bring fsquid Ted Drewes frozen custard. I would like a Balducci's(Maryland Heights)Pizza, super thin pepperoni n onion... LOL
Good luck in your move and welcome to Jacksonville.
Wow Mikey, I rolled my eyes a bit when I read that someone who hasn't moved here yet was gonna give a full on review of what it's like to live here, but you nailed every single topic that you chose to address.
Anyway, welcome to Florida. Hope it all works out as you expect. BTW, I've been to the Arch twice. Oops.
Lived in one, been to the other. St Louis is a very friendly city, perhaps more friendly than Jax. It is not some expensive, liberal northern bastion as some from the city may want to believe. Plenty of St. Louis transplants in Jacksonville. The zoo in St. Louis is free and its park system is far better than the park system in Jacksonville could ever possibly be (don't believe in the "largest" system bs). Downtown STL is denser and more lively, but it's not "lively" compared to at least 12 other American cities I can think of. Public transit in STL is maybe not the best, but at least there is public transit. You won't be riding any trains in Jax, and certainly not conveniently from the airport to town like you can in STL.
There is also that little thing in STL called Wash U. We don't have anything like that here, or really in the entire state. UF has a presence here, but is no Wash U. My high school in Jax sent more kids to Wash U than to any other school in the country for a while (the class above me sent close to 10 I think), so there are plenty of Wash U folks in the area. Also, LaDue is obviously very nice, and I knew a family who moved here from there, and they enjoy both Avondale and the beach. You can't be a snob from STL, especially when you're here with transplants from CA and the NE (and S FL).
Basically, in a nutshell, what I really want to say is that if you are moving here from STL, you really can't come down here and act like you are some hyper-educated, hyper liberal god from an old Boston suburb. You are coming from a down to earth midwestern city with a great culture, friendly people, and low to no growth to a city filled with a much more diverse mix of people from many more places. Depending on where you live your neighbors could be transplants from Lake City, FL (flying conf flags and all) or from Brookline, MA. Your neighbors could range from various Hispanic to Middle Eastern (we have a huge Lebanese population here) to Serbian (also big here) to Filipino (also big here) to someone from CA. Our metro has been growing at 20% each decade, and this growth comes from low taxes, retirement, the military presence, and job growth. Don't for an instance think you can come down and rule the roost, but come down as a humble STL transplant with an open mind.
Housing may be down now, but there is a much higher chance of seeing decent appreciation here in the long term than where you are coming from. STL is probably the cheapest 3 million person city in America and houses have always been very inexpensive there. The bubble may have burst here, but this is not the first time, and at least we get bubbles. Buy now, sell 10-15 years from now, and with our low cost of living the equity provided in your next housing bubble could make you pretty well off if you aren't already.
Thoughts on areas to live are very subjective. I never lived in St. Louis but your post was well thought out and written! Make sure you live by the beach to get that summer breeze otherwise is just plain muggy hot here. Good luck with your move.
I have lived in St Louis(Creve Coure actually) the weather here is better than the weather in St Louis, but yes beach living is fantastic. Give it a try, rent out there at first before you buy. Learn the area's and then decide where you want to live. Atlantic beach is a great beach community it's like 4 miles north of Jax Beach. And if funds are not a concern Ponte Vedre is also fantastic but pricey and its like 4 miles south of Jax Beach.
Having lived in St. Louis for 25 years and then moved back to Jacksonville about 3 years ago, I'm gonna touch on a couple of points you made. Over all, you pretty much nailed it, but there are a couple things you missed
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Metro vs Metro
With all of the 'we include the county', 'we have more people' business it's hard to really tell who is the 'bigger' city based on numbers alone... but it's St. Louis. There is a larger downtown-to-midtown area and far higher population density heading out of the city. If you include the whole StL Metro area, East StL, St. Charles, Alton, etc there are a *lot* of people and businesses here. The distances from suburb to downtown don't seem to be much different but where you'll go through miles of trees and empty space heading down to Nocatee you'll be hard pressed to find an empty acre from downtown StL to Town and Country.
What does that mean, really? StL doesn't have the big-city amenities... public transportation is terrible. We have some nice parks and the zoo is great. But, compared with the beaches and river (which is actually usable; you'll grow a fifth limb if you swim in the Mississippi) I think we're on pretty even footing. We have 3 pro sports teams to Jax's 1 and if you like baseball, you'll love StL. Personally, baseball is boring as hell but to each their own.
StL does have a better university system. Washington University is one of the best in the nation, St. Louis University isn't far behind and even UMSL has a name beyond the region. The smaller universities in Jax don't really compete at that level however I don't foresee that being an issue for us in the next 20 years or so.
What both have in common is that both downtowns are extremely underutilized, I'd say St. Louis even more-so than Jax.
Actually, I'd say that's backwards. The Jax downtown is tiny compared to St. Louis, for one, and once you get out of downtown you're in an area you really don't want to be.. at least in 2 directions. North and West of downtown aren't what you would consider good areas.
My observation has been that if you take St. Louis county, blow it up about 3 times its size, and flip it horizontally, you get Duval county. West of downtown is bad and turns redneck the farther you go, east of downtown starts getting better the farther you go. The beaches are the Chesterfield area, west of downtown is Washington Park and then the rest of Illinois.
Btw, if you think St. Louis has a poor public transit system, you ain't seen nothing yet. Public transit is next to non-existent in Jax. Yes, there are regular buses, but nothing like metro-link unless you count the half-mile of mono-rail downtown.. which doesn't actually go anywhere.
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Employment
My wife is in finance, I am in technology. She was offered a relocation here which started the conversation otherwise Jacksonville wouldn't have been on our radar at all. So, it's me that needs to worry about a job. When doing similar job searches on indeed.com in my professional area and salary I come up with 1.5 to 4x as many matches in StL than in Jax. I'm not totally sure what to make of that since there may be 1/2 to 6x as many qualified candidates here. In working with recruiters it seems that the jobs picture in my field may be slightly dimmer and salaries a little lower in Jax than in StL but it's not as dismal as I would've initially suspected.
On a side note, my currently employer has extended the opportunity to telecommute so I'm solid no matter what.
Service, finance, and medical are good here. Technology, not so much. That being said, there are technology jobs to be had, you just have to sell yourself more to get them.
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Entertainment
This one may be a bit subjective. If you like to go to clubs and get 5h17 faced every weekend then StL is alright. If you love baseball (and to a FAR lesser extent Football or hockey), StL is alright. If you like to do just about anything else with your time, StL doesn't offer much. We do have casinos however they are pretty depressing. The arch is a once-in-a-lifetime visit. The Zoo and Forest Part in general are fantastic but if you don't live by them, you probably don't go there often. If you extend the range a bit there's hunting, fishing, and canoeing the rivers. The closest other metros are Kansas City (4hrs), Chicago (5hrs), and up from there.
On the JAX side there are miles and miles of beaches. I'm a beach guy... love 'em. Plenty to do on the rivers. And lots and lots of golf. Move that radius out a bit and you get the tourism of St Augustine, the parks in Orlando, up to the food of Savannah. Moving out the 4-5 hour range and we're down in Miami, over in Destin/PCB, etc. While Jax doesn't have the one-park-to-rule-them-all situation like Forest Park in StL, due to preservation laws and such the whole environment surrounding the city is far more pleasant than StL.
The big down side for me is that my sport is roller hockey. I've been playing since I was 12 and until a recent injury I played 4 days a week. There is pretty much NO roller hockey in Jax (save one league that plays with a ball on a roller skating rink). I'm phasing out hockey and phasing in golf to compensate.
Overall, the beach and almost-year-round pool is something my wife and I will take advantage of all of the time; almost every day. That adds more value to our lives than sports teams or great zoos.
Jax has a zoo. It's about the size of a postage stamp in comparison with St. Louis, and there's a fee to get in, but there is a zoo. Personally, I get my zoo fix once a year when we go back to St. Louis to visit the wife's family. I've been to Jax zoo once since we moved down here, and it just doesn't do it for me.
The beaches more than make up for the lack of a zoo or a large public park, imo. However, you'll miss the hills around St. Louis, trust me. Down here, the biggest hill I've found is over by Avenues Mall, and it's such a man-made oddity they had to put up a sign that says hill to warn people about it.
Hunting, fishing, and canoeing turn into surfing, deep-sea fishing, and snorkeling
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Weather
StL weather sucks. I don't think I've been to place that the weather has sucked more to be honest. We get all four seasons here, that's true. We can hit 105 and -5 in the same year. Our highest monthly average high temp is 88 in July and our lowest monthly average low is 37 in Jan; a swing of 51 degrees. Jax's highest avg high is 91 in Jul and 64 in Jan; a swing of 27 degrees.
With swings as dramatic as those in StL we only have a few weeks of pleasant weather. The summer heat waves tend to sit on us, muggy yet without rain. The winter storms are more often sleet and freezing rain than snow. In Jax it gets hot and humid, no doubt. But there's an ocean breeze or two-hour downpour on it's way to cool things down. For someone who really enjoys both the hot and the cool, their pool and their snow skis, StL might be great. Personally, I'm looking forward to getting rid of most of my sweaters and heavy coats not to mention actually being able to go outside from November to February.
Umm, fair warning. While temperature wise Jax isn't too far off of St. Louis summers, the sun down here is about 5 times more intense than St. Louis has ever seen. It will hit you like a ton of bricks. Not saying it's bad, but remember to keep yourself well-hydrated and slather on the sun screen if you decide to go outside to play. I can remember going out and wandering around in St. Louis for several hours with no sun screen and barely getting a tan. Try that down here and you'll turn yourself crispy. Seriously, sun screen is your friend all year long.
However, going outside in shorts and t-shirt on New Year's Eve and picking oranges for breakfast is kind of nice
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Housing
It sucks for JAX's economy but houses are a steal there. It certainly seems there was a much larger bubble and much louder burst in Jax than in StL. Over the past 4 years or so our home bubbled up about 20% or so beyond what we paid. What we are seeing in Jax is closer to 40%. It would also seem there are so many people under water and so many desperate builders it's almost cheaper to build than to buy.
It's an aside and personal opinion but I also really like the look of FL houses, stucco and pavers, vs the vinyl siding and concrete homes we see up here. We will miss our junk storage (aka basement) though.
Not having a basement sucks, to be quite frank. It takes quite a bit of imagination to figure out storage down here in comparison. Guess that's why storage places do so well. Seems like there's one on every corner.
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Politics
After hearing the horror stories on here this one had me a little leery. I lean progressive. From what I have read Jacksonville is full of southern good 'ole boys who love their guns, and hate anything that's a different color... and taxes. In my brief time in Jax so far I do feel that impression is overstated however Jax does seem to posses more, let's say Southern Charm than StL does; and StL is already pretty charming. I'll vote how I vote, no doubt, but I might keep the yard signs to a minimum until I feel out the neighbors.
Jax is no worse than St. Louis when it comes to politics. I deal with a lot of people, and I've come across everything from right-wing holy-rollers to tree-hugging hippies. Rush is big down here, but so is NPR, and there's a good FM station for both (106.5 for the Rush crowd, 89.9 for NPR).
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Other Considerations and Asides
Some other things that passed through our minds... Jax airport. It's a nicer (when they aren't doing construction) and more pleasant airport however Lambert International has many more directly flights to places we want to be. Given the amount we fly this is only a passing concern though.
Taxation is more friendly in FL than in StL which is nice.
The visitor factor... we live in StL. Our families live around StL. We'll meet up for a dinner now and again but for the most part these events are treated more as a burden than an opportunity. We are really hoping our family and friends visit us often. We can really make time for them, plan fun things to do, actually connect with them rather than just hitting up an Applebees and saying goodnight.
Anyway, given all of that we are really looking forward to a change of lifestyle and can't wait to get down to Florida!
No state tax is nice, no sales tax on food is nicer.
Not going to touch on the airport, as it doesn't matter to me. If I'm travelling, it's by car unless there's an emergency.
It's much more pleasant being able to sit and actually talk to friends and family now that there is some effort involved in the visit.
Overall, the move from St. Louis to Jacksonville has been a good one. There were some adjustments to make, especially for my wife, who wasn't anywhere near prepared for the sun and heat down here after being raised in St. Louis. Other than that, cost of living is fairly close - though sticker prices are a bit higher in the grocery store, the difference is made up by not paying taxes on most items there. Demographics are about the same as St. Louis, from what I've seen. Still a nice mix of white collar and blue collar, though down here the blue collar is more transportation (port) oriented than factory oriented.
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