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I grew up in NW Florida, have been living for years in what I call "rural Atlanta" and am now ready to move back someplace warmer and, hopefully, less backwards. We have two young children and St. Augustine seems appealing because of the schools and because we have some family living in Jax, which isn't too far away.
My Jacksonville relatives screw their noses at the idea of living in the tourist town of St. Augustine but the tourist aspect does not bother me. I do wonder if we will see a high turnover of neighbors and friends due to the "snowbird" effect of people thinking they will like living here and then returning home for one reason or another which would cause our children to constantly "start over" making new friends as their old ones get recycled back North. Basically, I'm wondering what the attrition rate is for those relocating to St. Augustine or how many natives continue to stay there.
Some areas considered "St Augustine" are as much as 20-25 minutes away from the touristy area your relatives are referencing. Searching for houses in zip codes 32259 and 32092 will give you a good idea of what I'm talking about.
I'm sure there's hard-data out there somewhere, but I can only speak from experience.
St. Aug is a very interesting place, in that it's such an eclectic mix of income levels and social strata. Also, what defines a "native" is a far more fluid definition in St. Augustine than it is in other places, since the area does indeed have that transient quality to it. Back in my day, a St. Aug "native" was someone who drove a truck with either a gun rack or a surfboard rack. Today, the complexion is very different and a "native" is just as likely to be a kid born in 1993 to parents transplanted from Long Island.
(... but man, in the not too distant past, this dynamic was so, so different. Those old-school St. Aug "native" families roots ran waaaaaaaay deep... The Pacetti's and the Manucy's and the Solanos and the Pelliciers and all those "standard" St. Augustine surnames- those people measured their St. Augustine roots by the century, rather than by the generation. They're all still there, but these days, they're definitely outnumbered)
I wouldn't worry about your kids having to 'make new friends' all the time.
Sure, on the margins, I'd guess that St. Aug probably has a higher residency churn than other areas, but it isn't something so dramatic that it's going to impact the social development of a school-aged kid. Further, St. Johns County is evolving into somewhat of a bedroom community for Jacksonville, which means that a number of people from upper-income professions have moved in; types of people that used to be real unicorns in "old St. Augustine", back when it was still a southern town in character as much as geography.
As the Realtor mentioned, the "tourist part" of St. Augustine (downtown) is now ancillary to St. Augustine living, whereas in years past, it used to *BE* the town itself. The periphery has developed and developed and redeveloped more to the point that downtown St. Augustine (the "tourist area") is hardly relevant to any given St. Johns County resident, whereas in years past, it was the center of town affairs and commerce. This is one of the most marked changes that has occurred over the past 20 years.
As far as 'backwardness', bear in mind that areas don't change overnight. There's still a southern cultural ethos, particularly amongst the kids from lower income families (the real "natives") and if you're offended by your kid listening to Tim McGraw and saying y'all, well, St. Augustine hasn't totally whitewashed itself from it's past. Still, even though some of the backwaters remain, it's a very changed place from years ago and the 'old boy' scene isn't the primary one, as it used to be.
I'd give you the same advice I give everyone else. Live there for a month or two as a "resident" rather than a "tourist", before deciding to move in full time. A lot of the people who move to St. Aug and then leave disgruntled are the ones who judged the area based on their summer vacation or their annual trip to Bikeweek and didn't get a complete, 360 degree grasp of what they were getting into. As long as you approach the situation realistically rather than motivated by some Margaritaville fantasy, you should be able to make the correct decision for your family.
We just moved to St Aug from a high end part of St Louis, MO. Previously from Boca Raton and Ft. Lauderdale. We are now considering moving 20 miles North to Ponte Vedra. There are alot of nice people here and the town has a great cultural flavor but there is also alot of low end mobile home type folks here also. Nothing wrong with that but I want to raise my kids in a different environment.
If you shop you can find nice houses in the $350-$800 range and the schools are a 10.
We're planning on renting for six months to a year where ever it is we go so that we're sure that we like the area and know the area before we buy and to see if my husband can be comfortable in a city without a hub airport. I don't consider the term "y'all" to be backwards; it is the way I speak. I actually shake my head in wonder at why my youngest, born and raised in Georgia, insists on saying, "You guys," with her honey accent. I chalk it up to her being a daddy's girl. We don't do country music, but it doesn't offend me, either.
Yes, transient friends won't stunt anyone developmentally! That's not the angle I was coming from. I enjoyed the stability of going to school with many of the same people from kindergarten to the time we left for college and think it would be nice for my children to have that same sense of continuity, as well.
Perhaps it is impossible what I am looking for. For the last 12 yrs, we have been living in "Mayberry" where family roots run deep, everyone smiles, waves and knows each other and where we even have a soda shop in a drug store where they call us "Honey." I still find all of that charming. We are getting an amazing amount of acreage and house for the money with an incredible, private view of rolling, wooded hills. My children have been hanging out with the same kids since they were babies and I with their mothers. I like all of that. The same qualities that make this town quaint also make it prejudiced and short-sighted, however. It is the small town philosophy and attitude that I find so irritating, not the fact that I live among other people who also say "y'all" and know how to make sweet tea properly. The same deer that are so much fun to see in our backyard eat the flowers and carry ticks and they seem just a bit symbolic to me of our feelings toward this town. (*pausing for a moment, wondering if I should delete this last sentence lest it should be taken too literally or harshly*)
I may be considered a more "crunchy," liberal type of person (sans the broom skirt and Birkenstocks; a more tailored version), an organic semi-vegetarian and my husband is a yankee, city-slicker who travels globally and has nearly zero in common with the locals other than the fact that we all love our kids. I could hold out here longer--the elementary school is wonderful and we have a few more years before middle school--but he is d.o.n.e. and wants to return to civilization.
There are a couple of areas in Atlanta that we have discussed but even in the best areas the schools are a problem beyond elementary and I neither like the concept of my kids going to a private school if we can avoid it nor the cold, Atlanta weather. I grew up in Florida and consider it my home. It's not dramatically warmer than Atlanta but it is enough to make a difference to me. My hometown on the other side of the panhandle is too conservative and does not have a lot to offer the kids; it's fairly similar to where we are living now, only with a beach and, compared to many other Florida costal areas, over-priced housing. On the other hand, my husband does like both my relatives and the Avondale area of Jax, which has the same school problem that the similar areas in Atlanta have...which is why I am interested in exploring the idea of St. Augustine. I'm still in the early stages. There's so much to consider! I appreciate everyone's input.
I may be considered a more "crunchy," liberal type of person (sans the broom skirt and Birkenstocks; a more tailored version), an organic semi-vegetarian
Fifteen or even ten years ago, this might have been a dealbreaker, but today, it shouldn't be a problem (unless you're *really* uncomfortable in your own skin to the point that any meaningful cultural divergence from your own political ideologies feels oppressive)
St. Augustine is still red, but it's substantially bluer than it was in years past so it's not like you're going to encounter difficulty finding folks of a like mind. Some of this is clearly a result of St. Augustines rapidly changing demography, while some of it is probably attributable to broader, cultural sea-changes that have occurred over the past decade.
Still, the St. Aug/PV/Jacksonville metroplex has a substantial bible-belt "Bush Country" dynamic to it, so at minimum, be prepared for that. Some people of your political bend find this facet of NE Florida living to be intolerable and leave for bluer pastures, others have no problem with 'political diversity' and it doesn't bother them. Just be prepared to regularly encounter people who don't believe what you believe in.
No, barring encountering the isolated knucklehead who can exist anywhere, the people of St. Augustine aren't renowned for being confrontational about their politics, but just know what you're getting into and I'd highly suggest not being pompous or pushy about anything political (100% of people who are very much pompous and/or pushy about their politics do not believe they are). You're definitely not moving to Berkeley or Madison, Wisconsin, that's for sure, but it's probably a political oasis compared to any given town in Rural Georgia.
I've never lived in blue pastures before. It sounds intriguing but is too far away from family, even the warm areas. I probably wouldn't fit in there, either, though; We're church-goers without the "Bush Country" dynamic. We know better than to discuss politics with anyone in the general area or any religious topic that has emotional connections attached with it: sprinkling vs dunking baptisms is safe, predestination vs free will is safe, homosexuality and evolution are decidedly *not* safe topics, etc. In general, I try to avoid people of all philosophies who have veins popping from their neck, as I find their company too exhausting. It would be nice to live in an area where I don't have to always bite my lip, though, or discover that some pick-up trucks have upgraded the steel bull-testicle ornaments hanging from their hitch to multi-color versions with led lights. No, I take that back. I actually love seeing new pick-up truck decor. It's like spotting a deer in my backyard.
Yes, Jacksonville/St. Augustine would be an oasis for us.
You'll do fine in St. Augustine. While you may not end up living in the historic downtown part of St. Augustine, there are a lot of areas in St. Augustine to consider. If it fits in your budget, I would recommend some of the family neighborhoods on Anastasia Island, zip 32080. This is a super nice area, lots of stability and close to the beach and downtown.
That being said, St. John's county (St. Aug) is one of the more conservative counties in an already conservative part of the country. If you scratch the surface, you'll find there is little separation of church and state in St. John's county. Clay county is the same. Duval is more "progressive" by comparison...by comparison. I think St. Aug will suit you fine though, based on your description of where you're coming from.
Our budget allows us to live pretty much anywhere as does my husband's business as long as we have an airport and the Internet. Finding a place where both of us actually feel good about living is truly another story altogether! I do appreciate the recommendation of the 32080 homes with the good schools. It seems recently developed to be considered stable, though, with modern subdivisions and cul-de-sacs.
I'm curious about what your definition is of "little separation of church and state in St. John's county." Is this a reference to blue laws or do you have occasional events like the prayer scandal Santa Rosa County has been going through? (Florida school officials in prayer case could get jail time - CNN.com)
Our budget allows us to live pretty much anywhere as does my husband's business as long as we have an airport and the Internet. Finding a place where both of us actually feel good about living is truly another story altogether! I do appreciate the recommendation of the 32080 homes with the good schools. It seems recently developed to be considered stable, though, with modern subdivisions and cul-de-sacs.
I'm curious about what your definition is of "little separation of church and state in St. John's county." Is this a reference to blue laws or do you have occasional events like the prayer scandal Santa Rosa County has been going through? (Florida school officials in prayer case could get jail time - CNN.com)
Anastasia Island was more of a small beach town but has really developed in the last few decades. I guess it depends on what you consider modern, but plenty of the development goes back to the 1970's and 1980's. Outside of the historic downtown area of St. Augustine, a neighborhood that dates back to the 1980's is "older" in these parts . The newer part of St. John's county to be developed is the northern part of the county and that development only dates back 5 years or so.
As far as my comment about church and state, I'm afraid it's the latter. Yes, there was prayer in school even just last year:
St. John's county and Clay county school districts want to teach creationism alongside evolution. Duval county, on the other hand, has held a firm stand that only evolution will be taught.
You will also see billboards on US1 for a group of county leaders that participate in a prayer breakfast group. I forget the name of their group, but Folio Weekly did an expose on them a year or so ago. There was pressure on other city employees to join the prayer group if they wanted to continue on with their careers.
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. The newer part of St. John's county to be developed is the northern part of the county and that development only dates back 5 years or so.
