Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Bad credit is an indicator of someone who has been a victim of bad luck, loss of income - possibly due to divorce, death of a second income earner - and not adequate insurance, a devastating medical condition, etc etc, etc.
There are LOADS of reasons for someone to have a bad credit rating that do NOT add up to lazy, dishonest, stupid, etc.
And the more you don't give those people a chance to right their wagons...the more their credit is going to suck, and it's a vicious spiral down the drain. This is how rotten things happen to good people.
But heartless *******s like you don't give a good god damn. You make me sick. You have the typical American attitude of "I got mine, **** you." Really great when things are going well for you...but try the shoe on the other foot for once. See how it feels when someone does it to you.
Let me tell you something, buddy -
A - Until I launched my business a year ago, I was on disability. I am a success story, I got off disability and became a self-sufficient person once again. This would not have happened, had I not gotten help when I needed it.
I earned those benefits, I paid into them all my working career - against just that possibility of becoming unable to work for some reason. I spent my time on disability back in school, learning a new skill...one which would enable me, in spite of my disabling condition (which I still have) to nevertheless become fully self-supporting.
I am NOT lazy, I am not a bum, and I have a work ethic that would break a ****ing plow horse.
And to hear you dismiss people who have - for no fault of their own - fallen on hard times...and write them off...really pisses me off.
And to hear you diss people with mental disabilities really ticks me off, too. As if they chose to be that way?
You have all the warmth of a penguin on an iceberg, and you are a sorry-assed excuse for a human being.
I have nothing further to say to such a heartless, clueless bastard.
This post, by the way, is directed at "ShouldHaveLeft914" AND blisterpeanuts.
Both of you are heartless bastards. I wouldn't want to work for you anyway.
Well stated.
What you are seeing is the Just World Fallacy.
This insane view of the world can be summed up as "everyone gets what they deserve."
Now, common sense would dictate otherwise, unless we're going to say that ill children "deserve" their fate and so on, but the Just World Fallacy is the bedrock for the "boot-strappers" who honestly believe that every misfortune is earned because everyone but them is "lazy, stupid, on welfare" or whatever.
Why do they believe this? Arrogance, usually. They are the types who take credit for all of their successes. No, no - their fortune in being born in a developed nation can't be part of it, nor can their parents, their teachers, and so on. They alone are responsible for every success in their lives - it makes them feel good and superior to think this way and allows them to prattle on about Ayn Rand and other high-minded nonsense so they can look down on the "takers" who haven't had their luck in life - I mean "haven't worked as hard in life" - as they have.
This view has a dark mirror to it, of course. For them to take credit for every success in their own lives, they must believe that luck cannot play any role, because if it did, they'd have to accept the fact that their location of birth, "choice" of parents, and so on had a huge effect on their success. So, they must banish luck and fortune from the equation. This means that when a person suffers misfortune - job loss, disease, etc. - they blame the victim and treat it as a personal failing on their part. Clearly, they just "didn't work hard enough" and thus deserved to lose everything.
It's a crazy way to look at the world and is really barely a step up from believing that sick people are suffering because of "sin" or "not praying hard enough" or some nonsense, but it follows that same half-baked line of reasoning. Unfortunately, it is a popular world view since it feeds hubris, and there's plenty of that to go around these days.
This insane view of the world can be summed up as "everyone gets what they deserve."
Now, common sense would dictate otherwise, unless we're going to say that ill children "deserve" their fate and so on, but the Just World Fallacy is the bedrock for the "boot-strappers" who honestly believe that every misfortune is earned because everyone but them is "lazy, stupid, on welfare" or whatever.
Why do they believe this? Arrogance, usually. They are the types who take credit for all of their successes. No, no - their fortune in being born in a developed nation can't be part of it, nor can their parents, their teachers, and so on. They alone are responsible for every success in their lives - it makes them feel good and superior to think this way and allows them to prattle on about Ayn Rand and other high-minded nonsense so they can look down on the "takers" who haven't had their luck in life - I mean "haven't worked as hard in life" - as they have.
This view has a dark mirror to it, of course. For them to take credit for every success in their own lives, they must believe that luck cannot play any role, because if it did, they'd have to accept the fact that their location of birth, "choice" of parents, and so on had a huge effect on their success. So, they must banish luck and fortune from the equation. This means that when a person suffers misfortune - job loss, disease, etc. - they blame the victim and treat it as a personal failing on their part. Clearly, they just "didn't work hard enough" and thus deserved to lose everything.
It's a crazy way to look at the world and is really barely a step up from believing that sick people are suffering because of "sin" or "not praying hard enough" or some nonsense, but it follows that same half-baked line of reasoning. Unfortunately, it is a popular world view since it feeds hubris, and there's plenty of that to go around these days.
Very true...and you have a good insight into these people. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to call them out for their callousness and cruelty and heartlessness every chance I get. People like that ought to be publicly shamed for believing as they do. And I do my part when I can to bring it home to heartless a-holes like that.
This insane view of the world can be summed up as "everyone gets what they deserve."
Now, common sense would dictate otherwise, unless we're going to say that ill children "deserve" their fate and so on, but the Just World Fallacy is the bedrock for the "boot-strappers" who honestly believe that every misfortune is earned because everyone but them is "lazy, stupid, on welfare" or whatever.
Why do they believe this? Arrogance, usually. They are the types who take credit for all of their successes. No, no - their fortune in being born in a developed nation can't be part of it, nor can their parents, their teachers, and so on. They alone are responsible for every success in their lives - it makes them feel good and superior to think this way and allows them to prattle on about Ayn Rand and other high-minded nonsense so they can look down on the "takers" who haven't had their luck in life - I mean "haven't worked as hard in life" - as they have.
This view has a dark mirror to it, of course. For them to take credit for every success in their own lives, they must believe that luck cannot play any role, because if it did, they'd have to accept the fact that their location of birth, "choice" of parents, and so on had a huge effect on their success. So, they must banish luck and fortune from the equation. This means that when a person suffers misfortune - job loss, disease, etc. - they blame the victim and treat it as a personal failing on their part. Clearly, they just "didn't work hard enough" and thus deserved to lose everything.
It's a crazy way to look at the world and is really barely a step up from believing that sick people are suffering because of "sin" or "not praying hard enough" or some nonsense, but it follows that same half-baked line of reasoning. Unfortunately, it is a popular world view since it feeds hubris, and there's plenty of that to go around these days.
This is SO true. And explains why they tried to make 'you didn't build that' a thing during the campaign. Of course, most humans understood that "you didn't build that' meant exactly what you have posted here - mainly that there are people who DO help us on our journey. People who helped us get where we are.
Is it the tiny baby's fault that she was born in a country where people die for lack of clean water?
it's hard work. People don't want to work hard. They quit after three months.
Thank you for proving my point.
The apple growers have the same issue. It's very hard work and locals won't stick around longer than a few days. That's why they import Jamaicans to pick apples, year after year; those guys work twice as hard and are grateful for the employment. You can make $25 an hour if you work really hard, pretty good money, yet there are no takers.
It's all about the work ethic. All this pious preaching about respect and cushy benefits is just a lot of hot air. In the end, it's the bottom line that counts, profit-and-loss. Nothing else matters.
Oh come now. Try something else because this baloney is stale. He worked as long as he physically could. He tried his best. He was not used to physical labor but that was not his fault. I give him lots of points for trying. Most people are not up to the hard manual labor. As I said, I before you should try. What is your line of work?
Could you go from whatever your job is to the oil fields? Would you? Maybe you are a manual laborer but those who are not aren't going to have an easy time of it.
This guy was around five foot ten at maybe 175 pounds. I give him credit for trying and lasting as long as he did. You have no heart. Work ethic had nothing to do with it.
What is being shown on this thread, is a us vs. them rant sheet.
Lets look at some of the things being screamed about.
1: Employers are too strict on who they hire. Fact: Companies know what their needs are. How much education and experience their employees have. From heard earned experience they know that it will take 1 year to train someone right out of college to do the job at normal speed and efficiency. They know if they hire someone that has sufficient experience, they do away with having the position filled by someone that will not be doing it satisfactory, and someone else will have to take on part of the load to keep the work done. As there are lots of people with experience and education available, they can hire s someone that in maybe a week getting used to their companies procedures can work at the skill and speed level a trainee can do one year later, and not have to put part of the load on some others that are already working to capacity. NO BRAINER: Anyone with any intelligence will realize any sane manager will look for the experienced person.
2: They are angry that someone like Cisco will lay people off. Fact: They have no work for these people to do. Why should they employee some people when they have nothing to do that will benefit the company. NO BRAINER: Any manager that keeps unneeded people working for them, should be fired. The company cannot afford to keep them, as they may drive the company into bankruptcy if they keep them paying them for non existing work.
3: They are angry, that a company will sort out applications, and only interview maybe 10. I read the other day about a California company had over 2,500 applications for an engineer job. A company cannot afford to waste time, interviewing 2,500 applicants. They are going to sort out the maybe 10 best using a computer sort, and then some HR human sort, to get it down to 10 which all seem to be perfect for the job. Those are the ones that are going to get the job, most often with experience that will allow them to hit their stride in week 1, not after a years training. NO BRAINER: The company is not going to hire a dozen or more people for a short period to time to go through all those applications. They are going to sort out the most qualified, and those they will interview. Just because a person thinks they would like that job, does not mean that they are the best qualified to get it. It has always been that way, except now in parts of the country there is a huge surplus of available people that apply for the job.
When there so many applications, why not hire the best available instead of trying to find someone that has no experience, and no proven record to go by and give them a start.
4: We keep seeing people complaining about the jobs that have been sent overseas. But on the other hand they don't even consider all the jobs opening up in this country by overseas owners. Example there are 10 foreign companies building cars in this country, and there are only 2 U.S. owned auto makers in this country. One of them, builds way more cars in the U.S. than in Japan. Yes two, as Obama administration sold Chrysler to Fiat.
One problem for a lot of college graduates is, they got degrees in fields without employment opportunities available. They did not get degrees in fields where the jobs are. If you are one of those, don't blame the companies because you cannot find a job, and employers are not hiring you to be trained into something way different than you are educated in, and still expect a good upper living wage.
What is being shown on this thread, is a us vs. them rant sheet.
Lets look at some of the things being screamed about.
1: Employers are too strict on who they hire. Fact: Companies know what their needs are. How much education and experience their employees have. From heard earned experience they know that it will take 1 year to train someone right out of college to do the job at normal speed and efficiency. They know if they hire someone that has sufficient experience, they do away with having the position filled by someone that will not be doing it satisfactory, and someone else will have to take on part of the load to keep the work done. As there are lots of people with experience and education available, they can hire s someone that in maybe a week getting used to their companies procedures can work at the skill and speed level a trainee can do one year later, and not have to put part of the load on some others that are already working to capacity. NO BRAINER: Anyone with any intelligence will realize any sane manager will look for the experienced person.
I think you are not following the main point of this discussion and are eager to accuse people of ranting.
This thread is about employers supposedly not being able to find the talent they need. If there are really "lots of people with experience and education available", then they should not have trouble finding talent that they need. Right?
On the other hand, if they really can't find talent they need then you would think they would hire train. Let's not get into the purported difficulties about taking a year to get someone up to speed and turnover. IBM, Citi, Target, Case Manhattan, Prudential, P&G, Colgate and many other companies used to do it DESPITE the learning curve and turnover. So why hesitate now?
Simple. Employers don't need to hire badly enough. Or maybe they will do it if they can find cheap enough workers using the H1B.
The point of this tread is employers are making ludicrous demands for specific experience and using hackneyed bull crap to sort resumes and pick candidates and offer substandard wages then complain they are unable to find qualified employees.
If employers want to have insane and unmeetable demands for qualification I suppose that is there right but they then have no business complaining when they find noone to hire.
There have been multiple cases where current employees of companies have submitted their information for their own jobs as an experiment and were deemed not qualified.
There have been multiple cases where current employees of companies have submitted their information for their own jobs as an experiment and were deemed not qualified.
Then there was the well publicized incident where Steve Jobs was prodding Obama over dinner to loosen up the workers visa requirements because he "could not find the talent that he needs". Yeah, right. I guess Apple planned to hire tens and thousands of product managers but could not due to shortage of qualified workers.
are becoming more and more common these days, as good people get pink-slipped for no damn good reason, and then have to go through this ridiculous crap to get hired.
This is why I started my own company about a year ago. I have had the best year of my life!
I could apply to work for a large medical billing company...or I can take my skills direct to the clients and market them.
If the mountain will not come to Mohammad...then Mohammad needs to go to the mountain!
'Nuff said.
And this is where the next generation of businesses start. I applaude you for taking the initiative to start something on your own. It takes a lot more guts than most people have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Love_LI_but
I do know that wasn't the case. They were more popular than ever when they started this. And as for "they would have had to do major staffing cuts .." please pay attention. They DID major staffing cuts. Do you think they held onto the people in America who USED TO manufacture their goods for them and paid them to do nothing??
Actually you are WRONG about that. LMAO. So naïve! They ARE losing out. Doctors are making less and less due to insurance companies and HMOs controlling and tightening up fees. Who's winning? The executives of those companies, not the doctors. Accountants are just devaluing their professions. I predict soon enough the Indians, etc., will begin their own companies to compete with them doing taxes directly for Americans at cheaper prices. The American Bar Association approved legal work being done offshore by people who weren't educated in American law schools or passed the bar in this country. What are American attorneys and law firms facing now? Stiff competition from legal service bureaus. Yeah, they used to do the scut work of discovery, document review, etc. FOR the law firms on the sly and the law firms would pay them cheaply and mark up the fees and pass it on to the clients, now they are going after the law firms' clients directly OR the clients are waking up to what the law firms are doing and not paying the big markup. Don't believe me? Then keep your eyes closed. Look up Pangea3 of India for example. That's just one of hundreds. There's thousands more coming.
Outsourcing isn't the same as cutting back a workforce. Cutting back is doing just that--keeping existing structures in place and simply reducing the expenses involved in it. Outsourcing is a completely different process that is not just eliminating the jobs, but even the possibility of them. It's a much more drastic measure for a much more drastic problem. From an employee standpoint it looks the same, but it's two totally different results for two different problems.
The doctors I know are doing just fine in this economy. Sure many of them don't do private practice anymore since the red tape overhead is expensive and not worth the hassle anymore. And what's interesting is the ones who are approaching retirement with established practices can't find any younger doctors that want to take over the practice and existing client base. The most suprising part to me is why--the younger doctors don't want to work as hard. Seriously, even in professional industries, people no longer have a strong work ethic. But the health organizations pay well and there's enough pros vs cons for doctors to pursue a career working for someone else vs private practice. If things get as bad as you're saying, I'm sure the doctors will just return to private practice and the health organizations will change their structure or collapse. That's capitalism.
Anyone who has ever had to pay for real legal services knows that an accountant or lawyer that's just over the phone, even if in the same city, is not going to be of much good. Real business is still done face-to-face, and because the financial and legal industries are very face-to-face, there's not going to be the mass outsourcing armageddon that you're describing.
I am Indian. I know exactly what type of work imported Indians do compared to the domestic ones. And while the work ethic is strong with the imported ones, it's only because they're used to working hard. Life there isn't easy except for the rich, and then their sense of entitlement makes the youth of American seem very humble in comparison.
But let's talk quality vs quantity. While imported Indians do work hard, a lot of it is chasing their tail and running around in circles like their head is on fire. This is the normal work culture in the native land with a lot of 'sink or swim' training and just total lack of organization. It's functional but dysfunctional, like the whole country. This is quite different than the organization in most US companies, and a lot of time bad work habits from the native land get brought into the workplace. Most that end up staying in their positions 'wise up' and assimilate to a more organized level of working while keeping the strong work ethic. And the strong work ethic propels them in corporoate structures.
Domestic Indians that are first generation born to immigrants were exposed to two different cultures and work ethics. And we chose what we wanted to adopt from each culture. Those of us that saw our parents working hard seemed to have adopted that work ethic, while those that saw their parents scraping by adopted the same. Most of us lie somewhere in the middle, having a much better understanding of when to work hard and when to stop than our imported brethern. Hence, you see a lot of Indian faces (imported and domestic) high up in every industry now. I think in a generation or two and we'll be just as lazy and spendthrift as the average American, but for now we're really showing what can be done in the 'land of opporunity'.
And for the record, Indians already practially own the entire economy to mid-scale hotel industry, a good percentage of medical private practices, and are making their way into the professional industries of accountants and attorneys. But the only way this has happened was by still providing the services we Americans require.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blisterpeanuts
Yes I've been to several developing countries and I lived in Asia for a couple of years. What did I see? People who understood the importance of a job, any job, to keep them in food and shelter. It's a simple relationship that we Americans have forgotten.
But I was really referring more to the kind of people who come to America seeking a better life. You know, our ancestors (except for native Americans). These people are typically harder working and more willing to put up with less so that their children will have better opportunities later.
Very well said. It's hard for most of us to imagine not having running hot and cold water out of the same tap that's safe to drink. Try fathoming that well over 50% of people working in developing nations (many of them in the outsource centers set up by US companies) don't have this one thing we take so much for granted. It opened my eyes when I saw the house my father grew up in without water and he showed me the streetlamp under which he studied. I have it damn good here and shouldn't hesitate to make something of myself, no matter what the odds.
My parents are perfect examples of Americans coming to seek a better life. My father did his masters in Fargo, ND when he had never even lived in temperatures below 50F. He worked for American Motors and then Ford while trading stocks and looking at small business opportunies. After moving to the south and working for Unisys until the government contracts dried up, he entered the hotel industry full-time and expanded into real-estate. He's the American dream. He came to this country with $500US and a scholorship to do his master's in mechanical engineering in Fargo. Today he employs well over 100 people in the various business he owns. And we run into the same problems of finding people just not willing to work, even with the perfect set of opportunites in front of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Love_LI_but
Let's be real for a second, okay?
They are also trapped by the contract of the H1b.
They know that if they lose the job, they're expected to be on the plane back home ASAP, because the job is the only reason for them being in this country.
With that kind of leverage hanging over their heads that a citizen does not have, there's plenty of room for abuse, unpaid OT that they deserve, etc., if the employer wants it. They are also not free to move around from employer to employer. It is hard for them to do so.
And there has been lots of abuse of H1b workers by employers in America, that's for sure.
Trapped! Ha! Go home if it's too rough. Oh wait, the money is too good. So it's not a trap, it's a choice. Let's get that straight.
Do you know how many overstay their visa? It's all too common. It's why the government has become leery of work visas now.
Yes, there is room for abuse by US standards, and it shouldn't happen because we have OSHA. But the reason it does is because it's still much better than the abuse back home.
In the end, if it's so bad, the employee can leave. Most actually do after working enough to save up a healthy amount. Home is still home unless you want to really move.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler123
Incorrect:
1) People don't quite "after 3 months" in any serious business. Yeah, maybe part-time retail, but that's about it. For one thing, where would they go in this economy? And don't give me some nonsense about "living off of unemployment or welfare." That one has already been dis-proven plenty of times since unemployment by definition pays less than your last job and only lasts 6 months and nobody can live on welfare forever unless they are disabled.
I guarantee the farmers would see lines of Americans seeking to work those jobs if they actually were paid even $15 an hour ($600 a week, pre-tax, for a 40-hour week), much less the claimed $25 an hour. But, no - it's cheaper to use illegal aliens and then claim Americans are "lazy" for refusing to work a brutal job for terrible pay.
Just remember how hard the work is in the North Dakota oil fields, and yet people flocked there in droves. Why? Because the pay was good even though the work is hard. That's not the case here, hence the "difficulty in finding workers." Novel idea - try paying them better.
In any 'serious business'? What do you define as 'serious business'? Anything with a paycheck should be a 'serious business' as far as an employee is concerned. This is the sense of entitlement that has destroyed the American work ethic. The employee that can't sell themselves wants to be courted by businesses so they can choose where they want to work--NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN.
Unemployment was never designed to support a lifestyle, but guess what, it can if you drop your standards low enough. It's easy enough to get a job for a week to satisfy unemployment requirements and then quit out of the blue for no reason. We see it all the time when the last day of work when they didn't show up as scheduled is the same day listed on the form where they applied for unemployment. I remember seeing an ad at a Hampton Inn specifically saying that if you're applying for a housekeeping position just to quit in a week and apply for unemployement, don't contact us. It's that bad.
$15/hr is what most legal assistants, bookeepers, and medical office personel make. All of these positions require a couple of years of training either formally or informally. So you're saying that farmers should compete to take these wages as a guide? I'm sure they'd get much more educated people to do the work, but will it be cost effective for the farmers? I mean if people are willing to pay 2x as much for the produce, then sure why not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by andywire
Haha, lots of LOLs over on this end. Write back after a year or two of actually dealing with average employees. Write back after you find your work items stolen, misused, neglected... Write back after the no calls-no shows, lame excuses, stupid mistakes, lack of enthusiasm... Write back after you see your hard earned money being spent while someone spends 30 minutes on the crapper, texting on their cell phones, or worse... Write back after you find yourself scratching your head and saying "what is wrong with people?"
I'm sure many business owners start out like you. They start out naive to the challenges of opening your wallet thinking you'll get you monies worth... Well, if you worked your tail off for that money, you may never feel like you're getting your monies worth. Hiring will just be another necessary evil. Even at that, many people simply are not worth a job, and that's an unfortunate truth.
SERIOUSLY! This is what anyone who has actually been a small business and dealt with the pains of employees will realize very quickly.
We all start out like him, and even want to try again after being burned over and over again. But there's a certain point where you have to just 'get on with business' and run the business with whatever help you have and reward them accordingly.
Then there was the well publicized incident where Steve Jobs was prodding Obama over dinner to loosen up the workers visa requirements because he "could not find the talent that he needs". Yeah, right. I guess Apple planned to hire tens and thousands of product managers but could not due to shortage of qualified workers.
Bill Gates did that back in the last recession. He claimed he needed h1-b programmers because he find enough qualified US citizens which was right after Microsoft laid off several hundred American programmers. I think everyone knows what the skills shortage and H1-b program are about and that is cheap labor.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I know exactly what type of work imported Indians do compared to the domestic ones. And while the work ethic is strong with the imported ones, it's only because they're used to working hard. Life there isn't easy except for the rich, and then their sense of entitlement makes the youth of American seem very humble in comparison.
