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These patriarchal religions, from my perspective, are very violent and perverted and war-mongering. I will have none of it.
Religion and people who follow religion are responsible for most of the atrocities in the world. And I think individuals should start taking responsibility for that. If you affiliate with a religion that is doing any bad in the world, I believe it is up to you to do something about it.
WOW. You sound almost more dogmatic, extremist, and fundamentalist in YOUR view of religion and its impact on the world than any dogmatic fundamentalist religious person. I read the first few exchanges btwn you and Jazzymom and couldn't help but wonder at your ineptness at getting her answers to your questions. She answered her questions about why she believes the way she does but then you persisted on saying she didn't answer a single thing...when in fact the case is that you just looking for a jewish person to say, yes we worship a crazy book about a hateful God and we are proud of it. When in fact Jazzymom clearly stated how she took the OT and why she felt like it was right to interpret it that way.
I guess you are completely unaware of Stalin, Lenin, Communism??? Of all the atrocious mass murder that filled the 20th century in the name of no religion at all? The nukes on Japan...the Vietnam war...etc etc....your reading of history is absurdly askewed and the makings of a mad man. I pray that you are to open your heart and mind beyond your ridiculous close-minded perspective on the world, history, and most of all, religion.
Even among Orthodox Jews, do any believe the Jewish holy writings (specifically the ones that -- sorta -- made it into the Christian Bible as the "Old Testament") were actually authored by Adonai? I studied Judaism for about a year but at a Conservative synagogue that was on the liberal end of the spectrum in many ways, I would guess -- welcoming of LGBTs, numerous women rabbis. The impression I got was that the most "fundamentalist" Jews got was believing Moses authored the parts of the Torah that predate Moses's death. And that G-d inscribed the commandments in stone on Sinai. (& didn't Moses break them by accident? I love how human Moses is.) It seems clear just from the naming conventions that the Psalms of David are, if not thought to be authored by King David, not believed to be authored by anyone more elevated, like Adonai. Ditto with Ecclesiastes, the books of the prophets, etc.
Also, it's so clearly such a mix of literary genres -- narrative of what clearly seems an allegorical nature, love poetry, existential-angst in verse, gorgeous hymns, prophecy, legal statutes -- some purely religious and others criminal and civil -- carpentry instructions, historical narrative, more gorgeous poetry -- I mean, how do you even look at it and decide, "Gee, this is obviously a rigid instruction-manual on how to do what G-d wants"? It's clearly not supposed to be anything of the kind. Is G-d even mentioned in the Song of Solomon?
(OK, I just probably got a C-/"needs improvement" in orthodox Judaism. Blame it on my being a goy.)
(BTW, I too wish the OP, who is clearly not what his username declares at all, would just go read a book. He would, if he actually were curious. I was and I did. Good way to learn about the People of the Book before one starts harassing them; if moving on to the second stage need ever be deemed necessary, which I doubt. He's annoying to more than Jews, trust me. He could at least do some research or even some common-sense application and figure out that religion is not the major cause of war. Let alone Judaism. ((Unless you count pogroms and the various extermination attempts, which I do not.))
I'm not sure he realizes how transparent he is, and what is revealed thereby.)
But, in any case, while Rabbinic Judaism's dominance and the Talmud(s) and the whole thousands-of-years-old tradition of textual criticism obviously make for a very fundamentally un-fundamentalist religion, someone did mention some Orthodox Jews believe God wrote part of the Torah. That has to be quite a small number.
Or am I wrong?
Also, is it true Israel means "wrestles with G-d" and was the name given to Jacob for wrestling the angel?
Anyway, it seems to me even a cursory read through the Christian O.T. makes it clear the people Israel and their G-d had a relationship in which questioning was allowed to the Almighty's face. One of my favorite of all stories is the one in which Abraham argues G-d gradually into wiping out that town if fewer and fewer righteous people can be established to live there. I think he got the whole town off in the end, if I recall correctly.
Certainly it strikes anyone who takes the most cursory look at it as a religion that has always, from the beginning, been a dialogue and a weird kind of love affair, but nothing like a master-slave relationship. It seems clear at many points that G-d takes some morality pointers from His people.
-- Just a gentile, although a genuinely curious one.
What it seems designed most to do is get one to think deeply. And question, and, well, wrestle. Also glory in the beauty in some of it and laugh at the sense of humor of some (although admittedly that comes through much better if you read versions translated by Jews, which I did but which most non-Jews and no-religion-scholars don't bother to do, I'd guess).
That's just if you're a non-Jew. What it means to Jews I can only guess at. Part of that fierce and admirable fidelity to remaining what you are, your history, your contribution --first, I should say -- to civilization, something I understood perfectly well was not to be touched with my hands, the thing that gets passed around on Yom ha'Torah (sp?) in the streets with such radiant joy, the sight makes me blink back a totally absurd tear or two when I see it every year. That is for Jews to understand; but heck, it's not like gentiles are all blind deaf and dumb.
Read, as anyone can if only translated, it is a hell of a corpus. (Pun absolutely not intended.) I can see why people devote their lives to arguing a few passages, and think the time well spent.
G-d wrote the whole book. Then he taught what it "means" to Moshe Rabbeinu, which Moshe taught to his brother Aharon, Joshua ben Nun (his prized student) and to the 70 elders of the nation. This "Oral Torah" was then passed down for many generations and eventually codified in the Mishna and later debated and written as the Gamara (Mishna plus Gamara = Talmud). The written version of the Torah has not changed since it was given at Har Sinai (Mount Sinai). I learn from the same Torah that Joshua ben Nun did. Not one word changed since.
That's what we Orthodox Jews believe. We don't ask others to believe that. Others can think the book is man made and there are many versions or changes to it through the years. I've seen very logical arguments that state as such. I can see how most would believe it's all man made rubbish, and I'd almost fault you if you did think like we Orthodox Jews do. But this is how we think, and we make no apologies for thinking this way.
And to the original poster who asked how we Jews can assosciate with a book full of hatred... well i submit that the OP has never learned anything about the Torah from a rabbi who teaches it from the source language - Hebrew. Nor has the OP ever learned one second of Oral Torah. We Jews believe the written Torah is meaningless (and so very easily misunderstood) without the benefit of the Oral Torah. That's why a Yid like myself spends an hour or more every single day of the week, starting at age 7 and lasting the rest of my life, learning Gamara and Mishna with an accomplished Rabbi, who is able to transmit this Oral Torah effectively. Oh, and there's no hatred in the Torah. If you think there is, please re-read this paragraph.
Not all Jews, of course, believe that Hashem wrote the Torah. To be honest, the sort of Biblical literalism you are talking about is far less important to Jews than it is to Christians. An Orthodox Jew can believe that the Torah was dictated to Moses, while a Conservative Jew might believe that its more historical. It doesn't matter - they will both argue about what they are reading, look at interpretations in the Talmud, argue some more, and then go eat.
This is one of the key differences between Judaism and Christianity. So many people think Judaism is Christianity with Jesus. However, our way of looking at holy writings is completely different - even if revealed by God, we don't think that he's going to make it easy for us to understand it - it requires study! The idea of people going around quoting Bible verses at each other is not our way.
even if revealed by God, we don't think that he's going to make it easy for us to understand it - it requires study! The idea of people going around quoting Bible verses at each other is not our way.
Well said! And SO CORERECT!
There was a Muslim poster here a few weeks ago (with limited English skills) who when I told him I learn Gamara every day, he told me:
"Well once you've learned it all, then I'll listen to you."
Ha ha. Of course we Jews never ever say we have learned it all. We should begin learning Torah and Talmud in our youth and learn until the day we die. And yes, learning does not mean being able to quote bible verses. Learning is peeling the onion back to it's core, then realizing there's still more layers to peel back and cores that can't be seen with the undiscerning eye.
. So many people think Judaism is Christianity with Jesus. However, our way of looking at holy writings is completely different - even if revealed by God, we don't think that he's going to make it easy for us to understand it - it requires study! The idea of people going around quoting Bible verses at each other is not our way.
Very true. I think some get hung up on the Jesus issue and can't get past it. I think the beauty of Judaism, the relationship with G-d, the mitzvot, tikkun olam ...... it's one of our best kept semi-secrets. You're right about study. When I studied with my Rabbi for conversion, I was expected to be smart, know history, know the Tanakh, and know how to read and pronounce prayer Hebrew just like he pronounced it. And to have thick skin against nay-sayers. Part of me, for a brief moment, missed when I tried to be a good Baptist and all I had to do was have faith and BELIEVE and I was accepted.
Part of me, for a brief moment, missed when I tried to be a good Baptist and all I had to do was have faith and BELIEVE and I was accepted.
Yeah, the concept of creed over deed is so foreign to a Jew. Words are cheap. It's all about your actions.
If one were to live as a criminal and sociopath their whole life, and then on the last day of their life truly and meaningfully accept Jesus as their savior and whatever else... guess what - that person has little or no share in the world to come.. Certainly a just G-d would never say that is acceptable. It's what you do that counts, not what you say.
I meant to say Judaism is Christianity WITHOUT Jesus. Sorry!
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