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Why does it ask: "Are all members of your immediate family Orthodox Jewish (Charedi)?"
Why is it asking for the mother's ketubah to verify Charedi (ultra-Orthodox) status?
As if being Jewish was not enough. You have to be a member of the Charedi religion by providing to the Va'ad HaChinuch (Education Council) the name of your rabbi. And not only that, but if you are a baal teshuva, or your brother went off the derech or became Jonathan Sacks-style Orthodox (same thing as OTD to the ultra-Orthodox), your daughter won't be able to get into the Beis Yaakov!
How is it legal for them to exclude people from registering their daughters based on whether or not their whole family is ultra-Orthodox?
Glossary:
Beis Yaakov: Orthodox school for girls
ketubah (kesuboh in Yiddish): Jewish pre-nuptial agreement for marriage of obligations the husband has to the wife
baal teshuvah: a Jew who becomes observant in their adult life
off the derech: a Jew who is no longer observant, the opposite of a baal teshuvah
Jonathan Sacks: the former UK Chief Rabbi, who is Modern Orthodox and not Charedi (ultra-Orthodox)
Why does it ask: "Are all members of your immediate family Orthodox Jewish (Charedi)?"
Why is it asking for the mother's ketubah to verify Charedi (ultra-Orthodox) status?
As if being Jewish was not enough. You have to be a member of the Charedi religion by providing to the Va'ad HaChinuch (Education Council) the name of your rabbi. And not only that, but if you are a baal teshuva, or your brother went off the derech or became Jonathan Sacks-style Orthodox (same thing as OTD to the ultra-Orthodox), your daughter won't be able to get into the Beis Yaakov!
How is it legal for them to exclude people from registering their daughters based on whether or not their whole family is ultra-Orthodox?
Glossary:
Beis Yaakov: Orthodox school for girls
ketubah (kesuboh in Yiddish): Jewish pre-nuptial agreement for marriage of obligations the husband has to the wife
baal teshuvah: a Jew who becomes observant in their adult life
off the derech: a Jew who is no longer observant, the opposite of a baal teshuvah
Jonathan Sacks: the former UK Chief Rabbi, who is Modern Orthodox and not Charedi (ultra-Orthodox)
Would probably be illegal in the USA but since this is in the UK, I don't really know.
It's an exclusive private school. How is that any different than Harvard insisting you have good grades to get in? Or a competitive gymnastics club insisting you are an expert at gymnastics?
And I'm not so sure that would be illegal in the US. My kids private Jewish day school excludes non Jews, which includes children born from mothers who have not had proper halachic conversions.
I think I can summarize what is bothering the OP. It's not illegal to have an exclusive school (admittance into a private school is not an entitlement). And the highly observant Jewish crowd is not willing to put their children's neshamas at risk by unnecessarily exposing them to non Torah influences.
I think the dynamic may be the same as we find here in this forum. Torah Jews simply are unwilling to validate a frei (non Torah) lifestyle influenced by frei culture, no matter how bad you all wish they would.
As if being Jewish was not enough. You have to be a member of the Charedi religion by providing to the Va'ad HaChinuch (Education Council) the name of your rabbi. And not only that, but if you are a baal teshuva, or your brother went off the derech or became Jonathan Sacks-style Orthodox (same thing as OTD to the ultra-Orthodox), your daughter won't be able to get into the Beis Yaakov!
How do you know that is the case? Because they ask this question, does not mean they won't accept the child.
It's a private school and they can ask whatever they want. Would you have a problem if they asked how much is your income?
They probably had some questionable people wanting to enroll, and NO they do not want to accept children from questionable backgrounds. Obviously, this school caters to baalei teshuva, otherwise this question wouldn't even be on the application.
This would be perfectly legal in the USA as well. It's a private school, for crying out loud. According to the OP, it's wrong for a Jewish school to accept only Jews.
And Yiddish speaking schools have no need for this type of application. Parents with questionable backgrounds do not even apply there.
Last edited by iwishiwerethin; 05-28-2014 at 08:41 AM..
I think the dynamic may be the same as we find here in this forum. Torah Jews simply are unwilling to validate a frei (non Torah) lifestyle influenced by frei culture, no matter how bad you all wish they would.
Actually, every time you disagree with my pov I know I'm doing the right thing. It's when you agree with me that I get worried.
I think I can summarize what is bothering the OP. It's not illegal to have an exclusive school (admittance into a private school is not an entitlement). And the highly observant Jewish crowd is not willing to put their children's neshamas at risk by unnecessarily exposing them to non Torah influences.
I think the dynamic may be the same as we find here in this forum. Torah Jews simply are unwilling to validate a frei (non Torah) lifestyle influenced by frei culture, no matter how bad you all wish they would.
The beef I have with this application isn't that they are only accepting people with a Jewish mother. That's reprehensible if they receive public funds and has been deemed illegal in the UK. My issue is that not only must you be Jewish, and not only must you be Orthodox, but you also have to be ULTRA-Orthodox (Charedi). If they were fine with all Orthodox Jews including those that have the former UK Chief Rabbi's hashkafah (Modern Orthodox), they should simply ask that all students practice Orthodox Judaism, not that they be charedi.
But no, apparently Modern Orthodox Jews aren't following the Torah enough to be considered eligible to enroll. The school, and TFF apparently, think that Modern Orthodox Jews are frei (non-observant).
iwish, what makes you think that this school is only for baalei teshuva? If anything, I interpret the question they ask as excluding BT's, because they want to make sure that your whole family is ultra-Orthodox. Which means that a certain frum member of this forum, having admitted that his parents are Reform, would not be able to enroll his own daughter at this school if he were to live in the UK. I guess that means he's frei too, and enrolling his kids would rachmana litzlan threaten the other students' neshamot (souls). This isn't my opinion, but TFF's.
Is there a halachic justification for excluding Torah-observant Modern Orthodox Jews and even charedi Jews with a Modern Orthodox brother from enrolling at a Jewish school?
Usario, may I have permission to use yourself as an example? (If not, please ask Woodrow to delete this post).
You used to be a somewhat Observant Jew. It appears you are now somewhere between Conservative and Modern Orthodox. You're engaged to a non Jew, and you regularly position yourself on the side of frei Jews in this forum.
Would I want my kids spending time with your kids? Davka no. I would rather my kids be with Hyperion, because at least his hatred for Torah is out, admitted and in the open. In your case, it's the subtleties of your twisted observance that are so dangerous to my sweet little B'nei Torah.
Usario, may I have permission to use yourself as an example? (If not, please ask Woodrow to delete this post).
You used to be a somewhat Observant Jew. It appears you are now somewhere between Conservative and Modern Orthodox. You're engaged to a non Jew, and you regularly position yourself on the side of frei Jews in this forum.
I consider myself a traditional halachic Jew. But I don't call myself Orthodox. I did not feel that me and my Jewish fiancee (yes she converted, and according to Hashem's halacha, just not YOUR halacha) fit into American Ashkenazi Orthodox Jewish culture. I wanted to follow halacha but without the baggage of "social orthodoxy" which emphasizes appearances of being frum over respect for other people including Jews outside the community and non-Jews.
I defend Jewish law and Jews who try their best to follow it without piling on chumrot to fit in and showing disrespect for other Jews and non-Jews. However I don't tolerate it when the ultra-Orthodox claim a monopoly over being the ones who follow the Torah, and will call them out when they treat other Jews with disrespect, like this application does.
Quote:
Would I want my kids spending time with your kids? Davka no. I would rather my kids be with Hyperion, because at least his hatred for Torah is out, admitted and in the open. In your case, it's the subtleties of your twisted observance that are so dangerous to my sweet little B'nei Torah.
The funny thing is that there are probably many people in your community who have the same hashkafah as me and other traditional halachic Jews, but they wouldn't dare tell anyone or even their families about it because they'd risk having their own kids thrown out of schools like this Beis Yaakov. What you just wrote is exactly the kind of cultish attitude that I don't want my future kids to grow up with: shunning others, and making your children shun others because they don't believe the exact same way as you do. And not to mention calling my fiancee (and by extension, several forum members) non-Jews simply because the rabbis on her beit din were not as "frum" as you are.
Last edited by usuario; 05-28-2014 at 02:00 PM..
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