Is there really a difference? (Kansas City, St. Louis: live, cost, club)

[Hazel W]

I have a question for someone who has lived in both Kansas City and St Louis. I only want to know if the facts as I put them together are my imagination or are they real. I am not wanting to say "which is better" or such. I only want to know if I am seeing what I think I am seeing. To explain:

In Kansas City, I could go to any of many shopping areas and pretty much do all my shopping right there. All kinds of stores and shops, lunch stops gathered together, government and centralized business offices (downtown), entertainment areas. Downtown, Country Club Plaza, 95th Street, other areas the identities of which skip my memory. I know Downtown has changed drastically. So it is "memories" stirring there. But other places invited a shopper for an hour or a day. Even Johnson County, KS, tied right into the picture.

In St Louis County, this just is not true so far as I have been able to learn. It seems you have to make one trip to one area for one type of store and then go miles to another area for other things. There are good stores all over the county but you can't centralize your shopping. There is no "Country Club Plaza" or that large mall out on 95th street - or anything like it. Even a trip to a doctor. He wants you to get a test - go ten or fifteen miles to another area for that. Then return to doctor's office. It's at least a two-day journey. And it's harder to get around from one area to another, I think. Maybe my imagination?

Will someone who has spent good time in both areas tell me if I am imagining things? Or do I just not know how to manipulate St Louis County? Or, maybe Kansas City is now the same way? Opinions, please. Thank you.

[kcmo]

Originally Posted by Hazel W

I have a question for someone who has lived in both Kansas City and St Louis. I only want to know if the facts as I put them together are my imagination or are they real. I am not wanting to say "which is better" or such. I only want to know if I am seeing what I think I am seeing. To explain:

In Kansas City, I could go to any of many shopping areas and pretty much do all my shopping right there. All kinds of stores and shops, lunch stops gathered together, government and centralized business offices (downtown), entertainment areas. Downtown, Country Club Plaza, 95th Street, other areas the identities of which skip my memory. I know Downtown has changed drastically. So it is "memories" stirring there. But other places invited a shopper for an hour or a day. Even Johnson County, KS, tied right into the picture.

In St Louis County, this just is not true so far as I have been able to learn. It seems you have to make one trip to one area for one type of store and then go miles to another area for other things. There are good stores all over the county but you can't centralize your shopping. There is no "Country Club Plaza" or that large mall out on 95th street - or anything like it. Even a trip to a doctor. He wants you to get a test - go ten or fifteen miles to another area for that. Then return to doctor's office. It's at least a two-day journey. And it's harder to get around from one area to another, I think. Maybe my imagination?

Will someone who has spent good time in both areas tell me if I am imagining things? Or do I just not know how to manipulate St Louis County? Or, maybe Kansas City is now the same way? Opinions, please. Thank you.

It's your imagination. . It sounds like you just don't know St Louis County very well or have not found the right areas. St Louis County is like almost like JoCo, Eastern Jackson and the Northland all in one county. It's a very large and built up county and with all the sprawl of St Charles County right next door, it's a very large and populated area compared to how KC is laid out. But it has the same pockets of malls, office parks, etc as KC does. Only more of them. It also has Clayton.

The urban cores of the cities are much more similar in size. Both have a very linnear core from the river to the Plaza and River to Central West End as you can see in the pic below. But Metro StL is much larger and more built up than metro KC.

[Hazel W]

All right. Then I just need to learn how to find my way around St Louis County. And it is a confusing place to get around in. That much others also say. Perhaps because it is not on a grid. I am so used to cities built on a grid. Here I seem to be going east to go west and north to go south. Actually, of course, its just how the streets wind about.

Thank you for reply. That does help. Tells me I still haven't found myself or the county yet. "If at first...."

[Ztonyg]

St. Louis is an Eastern city and Kansas City is a Western city. They're both in Missouri but St. Louis shares more in common with cities along the East coast whereas Kansas City shares more in common with cities along the West cost in terms of city feel and layout. KC's layout is similar to other Western cities like Denver, Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Phoenix, and Salt Lake City.

The other "western" cities along the East coast with a grid system like KC are Chicago, Detroit, Indianapolis, and Milwaukee.

[zach_33]

There is a huge grid in Johnson County KS that reminds me of a mini-Phoenix (Phoenix being the most extreme example I can think of). Its like 10 miles by 10 miles and it is completely designed for massive streams of automobile traffic to flow in half mile increments at 45 miles per hour. The strip malls are very large and designed to intake massive streams of automobile traffic. It seems like a brutally competitive retail environment - there are more stores per capita than I can imagine being sustained in a typical society, and indeed, they open and close (go out of business) a lot. Its not terribly different from Chesterfield, Ballwin, Ellisville, etc. but it is a lot easier to navigate due to it being on a huge, connected grid.

[GraniteStater]

Originally Posted by Ztonyg

St. Louis is an Eastern city and Kansas City is a Western city. They're both in Missouri but St. Louis shares more in common with cities along the East coast whereas Kansas City shares more in common with cities along the West cost in terms of city feel and layout. KC's layout is similar to other Western cities like Denver, Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Phoenix, and Salt Lake City.

The other "western" cities along the East coast with a grid system like KC are Chicago, Detroit, Indianapolis, and Milwaukee.

KC's layout is similar to the western US in places like Johnson County, but in Missouri portions of the metro area far less so IMO.

[slowlane3]

Originally Posted by Ztonyg

The other "western" cities along the East coast with a grid system like KC are Chicago, Detroit, Indianapolis, and Milwaukee.

Actually, none of those cities are within 400 or 500 miles from any coast.

Many cities that ARE near the east coast, have street grids, at least in their central core: Manhattan, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Wash DC, Miami, Richmond, Savannah, Montreal, Toronto, but as you get further out within each city, rivers and hills get in the way, so that roads must become winding and curvy. .

[Hazel W]

Originally Posted by zach_33

There is a huge grid in Johnson County KS that reminds me of a mini-Phoenix (Phoenix being the most extreme example I can think of). Its like 10 miles by 10 miles and it is completely designed for massive streams of automobile traffic to flow in half mile increments at 45 miles per hour. The strip malls are very large and designed to intake massive streams of automobile traffic. It seems like a brutally competitive retail environment - there are more stores per capita than I can imagine being sustained in a typical society, and indeed, they open and close (go out of business) a lot. Its not terribly different from Chesterfield, Ballwin, Ellisville, etc. but it is a lot easier to navigate due to it being on a huge, connected grid.

"brutally competitive". Interesting phrase that I'd not thought of. But, since we get the same stores over and over everywhere, with whom are they competing? That "designed to intake massive streams of automobile traffic" hit me where it "hurts". Absolutely true and no thought to those who do not drive, who ride busses and walk across busy parking lots or cross busy speedways. I'm about to go off-topic here. Best stop. I have my ticket to Pern.

[zach_33]

Yeah, as much as I dislike being around car traffic, it exists everywhere. Take Manchester Road out in Des Peres, for a mile east of 270- now make that a grid and voila - you have Overland Park, or significant chunks of it.

KC is A-ok. I feel the same about StL.

[Hazel W]

Originally Posted by zach_33

Yeah, as much as I dislike being around car traffic, it exists everywhere. Take Manchester Road out in Des Peres, for a mile east of 270- now make that a grid and voila - you have Overland Park, or significant chunks of it.

KC is A-ok. I feel the same about StL.

I saw a news alert yesterday about someone who was killed there as she crossed Manchester. I once protested the short time we were given to cross Shawnee Mission Pkwy. The head of the department's answer was "My job is to keep traffic moving". There is a solution to this problem but they'll never do it. St Louis used to have such somewhere downtown - total traffic stop every third round so pedestrians could cross straight or criss-cross. I don't know if they still do that.

Well, at least there is no difference in the traffic. It's the same all over. Good morning.