Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
3) My ancestors started in inner-city slums, and by hard work, including learning a new language, moved up and out in 10 years or so.
1) So then what are you saying?
2) Part of it has to do with competition from subsidized roads. Back before WWII, LI actually had more rail lines than it has now, but the availability of ther car took riders away from them, and so they started closing down.
The other part has to do with government standards, some warranted and some not. You have all of these FRA regulations and safety standards that need to be complied with and union rules often end up making transit hard to run at a profit (not saying that unions are a bad thing, but I'm stating a fact)
3) And you ignored the second part of my post: "or expensive, crowded places in the inner city".
If you're a banker who works in the city, and you don't have a train to get you to work, the only option is to sit in traffic all day, unless you want to live in the crowded city (even if you can afford a nice apartment, you're still not going to have a lot of space)
Now, if roads weren't subsidized either (and you're not going to come up with a good argument as to why they should be subsidized and transit shouldn't be), then people would be able to live in areas that are reasonably spread out, but yet still transit-oriented, and transit might be able to run at a profit.
One example would be areas like Hempstead, Roosevelt, and Freeport. The houses are fairly large, but yet their transit service is pretty good for the simple reason that many of the residents can't afford a second car. If the cost of driving were increased, people would shift to transit, making it more attractive to use, and you'd see more middle-class (by LI standards, since by most standards, those areas are more or less middle class) areas with good transit service.
Walter's qeustion is in response to a poster saying that public transportation can't be run at a profit.
The answer is complicated, more than just wages/benefits and unions, even though that is a part of it.
The costs (whatever the mode, air, rail, bus) are greater than what the users are willing to pay for in fares. If you want people to use mass transit, and not individual cars then it has to be priced reasonably, so revenue is held down, there is the labor cost, there is also the costs of energy (fuel, electricity etc), the cost of the bus, train, plane itself, and then maintenance on such. In the case of rail, you have to pay to maintain the infrastructure on top of it. When it came to buses and air, the insfrastructure was publicly financed and maintained (roads) or non-existant (air) There is the cost of doing business with regulation, after all the feds say what you have to do and how (FAA, FRA, FMVCA etc)
Short answer is, it just can't. History teaches that lesson by the fact that all the bus routes, LIRR & NYCTA (subway) were all at one point privatley owned, hell Metro North is made up of THREE different former private railroads. Since WWII railroads have one by one ditched their passenger service, and whatever was left was dumped into Amtrak, only after that (and some de-regulation) did railroads make a profit.
Interestingly enough, air lines DID make money until 1978, when they were DE-regulated. Prior to 1978 air fare covered the cost of the flight, after deregulation the upstarts and prie wars started. Airlines have been losing money and going bust since.
My question is now for Walter: Can you name ONE passenger transit entity that makes a profit?
People have the option to relocate to other parts of the country where the cost of living is lower.
Quote:
Originally Posted by checkmatechamp13
2) Part of it has to do with competition from subsidized roads. Back before WWII, LI actually had more rail lines than it has now, but the availability of ther car took riders away from them, and so they started closing down.
The other part has to do with government standards, some warranted and some not. You have all of these FRA regulations and safety standards that need to be complied with and union rules often end up making transit hard to run at a profit (not saying that unions are a bad thing, but I'm stating a fact)
One possible free market solution would be to run non-unionized mini-buses or vans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by checkmatechamp13
3) Now, if roads weren't subsidized either (and you're not going to come up with a good argument as to why they should be subsidized and transit shouldn't be) ...
Eliminate all transportation subsidies, and then see what happens.
It's the subsidies that warp the system, leading to people living where they might not otherwise live if there were no subsidies.
I understand your point, but it doesn't answer my question.
But if all subsidies were eliminated (or never existed) the USA would be no bigger than the 13 colonies. In fact, they might not even have existed, considering it was a govt subsidy that led to the 'discovery' of America.
1) People have the option to relocate to other parts of the country where the cost of living is lower.
2) One possible free market solution would be to run non-unionized mini-buses or vans.
3) Neither should be subsidized.
1) So if all the poor move to a region where the cost of living is lower, who works the jobs nobody else wants to work?
2) That's possible.
3) Alright then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckthedog
My question is now for Walter: Can you name ONE passenger transit entity that makes a profit?
Actually, now that I think about it, in a few areas like Southeast Queens, the Flatbush area in Brooklyn, and some urban areas in NJ, you have "dollar vans" that carry people for around $2. The thing is that you often don't have experienced drivers (I mean, they are regulated to a certain extent, but since time is money for these drivers, a lot of them drive recklessly), and the wages are lower than for a city bus driver.
There are also a few private companies in NJ that run service through the Lincoln Tunnel at a slight profit, and of course, you have Greyhound, MegaBus, and a few other carriers.
He does have a point that removing subsidies from roads would help make transit profitable, but even then, there would still be areas that require some sort of subsidy (though there might be enough profitable routes in the system to offset the subsidized ones)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckthedog
I understand your point, but it doesn't answer my question.
But if all subsidies were eliminated (or never existed) the USA would be no bigger than the 13 colonies. In fact, they might not even have existed, considering it was a govt subsidy that led to the 'discovery' of America.
I don't know if he's necessarily talking about all subsidies. I mean, there are a lot of services that you really have to subsidize (police, fire, sanitation), and things that it would be wise to subsidize (like education).
I don't know if he's necessarily talking about all subsidies. I mean, there are a lot of services that you really have to subsidize (police, fire, sanitation), and things that it would be wise to subsidize (like education).
I'm talking all subsidies.
While police is paid for from taxes (property or income taxes, depending on where you are located), fire, sanitation and, especially, schools should be privatized.
Ride the N19 route at the Nassau/Suffolk border, never see more than 5 people on any bus. What a total waste of fuel. The subsidies are a drain on the entire system. That route does nothing but back up traffic with stops that do not allow the bus to pull off the road, kills me to sit behind an almost empty bus with 10 to 15 other cars.
Ride the N19 route at the Nassau/Suffolk border, never see more than 5 people on any bus. What a total waste of fuel. The subsidies are a drain on the entire system. That route does nothing but back up traffic with stops that do not allow the bus to pull off the road, kills me to sit behind an almost empty bus with 10 to 15 other cars.
I'd disagree on this. I think the N54/55 is the route that causes the most traffic issues (By Broadway especially) and has the least ridership in this area. The N19 actually gets a decent amount of riders from what I've seen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Greenspan
I'm talking all subsidies.
While police is paid for from taxes (property or income taxes, depending on where you are located), fire, sanitation and, especially, schools should be privatized.
eesh.. That could result in some "messy" repercussions.
While police is paid for from taxes (property or income taxes, depending on where you are located), fire, sanitation and, especially, schools should be privatized.
I could understand privatization, but the point is that they still have to be subsidized to remain affordable. (With regards to schools). The same thing for fire and sanitation: I have no problem with a private company doing it (assuming the service is good and they treat their workers fairly), but the point is that you shouldn't charge everybody the full cost of the service.
If you decided to take away those subsidies, it would disproportionately impact the poorer people. Without schools, they can't educate themselves and pull themselves out of poverty (I mean, they can, but they would have to find a way to borrow the money for 12 years worth of education and hope it'll result in a job that can help them pay it back, not a risk many will want to take), and without sanitation, you'd end up with health issues as they just leave their garbage all over the place. For firefighting, if you don't stop one home from burning, you could set fire to the whole neighborhood because the people won't be able to afford to pay for the fire department.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevink1955
Ride the N19 route at the Nassau/Suffolk border, never see more than 5 people on any bus. What a total waste of fuel. The subsidies are a drain on the entire system. That route does nothing but back up traffic with stops that do not allow the bus to pull off the road, kills me to sit behind an almost empty bus with 10 to 15 other cars.
From what I heard, the N19 gets decent ridership between Freeport and the Sunrise Mall. East of the Sunrise Mall is where ridership drops off. Also, it's not representative of all of the routes in Nassau County, because it is low-performing relative to the other routes. The direct cost per passenger for the average Nassau route is around $2.50 per passenger, but it's around $5 for the N19 (This was before privatization, so costs have probably dropped, but the efficiency of the routes relative to each other has probably remained roughly the same)
If you ride the N4 down Merrick Road, or the N6 along Hempstead Turnpike, or the N20/N21 along Northern Blvd, you'll see that the routes carry pretty well. The N6 is known among us transit nerds as being a monster as far as its loads go. The cheapest route on LI is the N40/N41 combo, which connects Mineola, Hempstead, Roosevelt, and Freeport, and it performs better than a lot of routes here in NYC, with a direct cost per passenger of less than $1.50.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pequaman
I'd disagree on this. I think the N54/55 is the route that causes the most traffic issues (By Broadway especially) and has the least ridership in this area. The N19 actually gets a decent amount of riders from what I've seen.
I'd think the N54/N55 would see more crowds because they don't duplicate the LIRR. Merrick Road is a few blocks from Sunrise Highway, whereas that can't be said about Jerusalem Avenue (and you can't get directly to Hempstead and Uniondale from Massapequa by LIRR, whereas you can get to Freeport on the LIRR)
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
