LI Teacher's Salaries (New York, Albany, Valley Stream: to buy, living, costs)
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You could keep pushing the '% of assessment' red herring, but the fact of the matter is the values here are in-line with the rest of the country when looking at MHI.
On the other hand, property taxes are over 4x higher than the median property tax bill in the US.
The median national annual tax bill for 2005-2009 was $1,805 but homeowners in the costliest counties shelled out more than four times as much:
1. Hunterdon County, N.J. ($8,216 annual median)
2. Nassau County, N.Y. ($8,206)
You seem to like using these strict ratios to come up with your opinion that "values are out of whack", but you don't come to this same conclusion on taxes when we are 4x higher than the rest of US on property taxes? ...interesting how that works, especially considering you have nothing to back up your overvalued opinion. The fact of the matter is median household incomes in Nassau are roughly 4x-5x MHI, NYS as a whole is at 6x, the US is about 4x. Take into account that down payments here are much larger as the higher MHI allows those families to save exponentially more than lower income areas in the US, and it's in-line with the US. So you could keep pushing the 'values are out of whack' rhetoric, but it's nothing more than a short-sighted opinion aimed at justifying our excessive taxes (proven both factually and according to an overwhelming public consensus).
Listen, we either have to agree to talk in terms of tax rate (a percentage of the assessed value) or total taxes paid (your actual bill). This is an important distinction because it's intuitive that the highest values will pay the highest total taxes... BUT, if Joe Bob is paying 2% in property taxes of assessed value in Upstateawanda and Mary is paying the same rate in Upper Brookville - how is that not "fair" from a state perspective?
The rest of your argument here is confusing me... you're comparing median household income to MHI? Aren't they the same thing? lol Those 4x, 6x, etc - what am I trying to do with those? Are you saying NYS as a whole has median home values 6x the MHI? I mean, I hope that is not the correct stat. wow
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LTV caps what people can borrow (through refi or purchase) regardless if they can easily afford the loan or not. Using a set-in-stone "3x your gross income" isn't practical. Incomes, and especially interest rates, are always moving (lower has been the trend).. so that would mean your multiple would have to move as well. So when interest rates were around 13% 20 years, what was your ?x to gross income then?
How could that be ? That's why I asked if your figure was "1.5x gross income to money borrowed" in the 80's, because it should be if youre claiming it's 3x today.
Debt-to-Income is the main factor to use here. Forget about using gross income to mortgage, it doesn't tell you the whole story. So can you prove that LI homeowners are taking on mortgages with higher DTIs? That would translate through to higher foreclosures in the area, which it doesn't. I'd actually say homes in your region are more out of whack considering the higher foreclosure rate.
This is horrendously fuzzy math and you're using it to make my case - so I don't get it... In simplest terms I'm arguing that it's more difficult to borrow more money with less income. You seem to be countering this point by saying higher interest rates, LTV, and DTI will factor in - well, of course they do. But they ALL mean you can only borrow LESS. There is no formula for these factors that mean you can borrow more than 3x your gross income - so, please hit me with more math proving that number is too HIGH. That's exactly my point!
Foreclosures are a whole other discussion. Ask yourself how many LIers could even afford to look at their own houses should they need to buy them today - your banking ratios would be off the charts. Then consider how much they owe in the face of exponentially escalating COL and taxes... and please don't pretend parents/grandparents gifting huge down payments are a good healthy way to drive the housing market.
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Have you even considered what interest rates have done since then? I'm sorry, but I don't buy that your house tripled in 9 years. What town was this in?
I have and you're welcome to look it up - Holtsville on the Islip town side. 4/2.5 colonial - neighborhood was selling over 400k at the peak. There was tons of inventory in the late 90s in Suffolk for under 150k, tons even bigger and nicer for under 200k. By the time I decided to leave, equivalent sized homes in worse shape then that one were selling for 400k in towns like Farmingville... Supposedly prices have "come down" from the peak - but easy to see what they still ask for a nice 4/2.5 colonial in a good school district. How do people afford these with 9k taxes making 60k, 70k, 80k.... 150k - what math works for your fancy acronyms?
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The point of using extremes was to show that your statement here: "total property taxes are a function of the "value" of the house, which in no way factors in the "wealth" (as in the income) of the taxpayer."
The example I gave clearly showed it has to do with SPENDING in each district -- very little to do wtih housing value. And stop with the "Malice and venom" rhetoric..the whole "teacher basher" rhetoric is played out already. That's like me saying: You and them are student/taxpayer bashers...teachers don't care about the students, it's all about me! ME! ME! when it comes to them. Otherwise, why would they be throwing tantrums and threatening to hurt the kids programs when they don't get their 7% annual raises (even during a severe recession and amid plunging home values)? Nonsense.
I see what I see and you see what you see... I just don't agree the proposed cure is going to get you what you want long term. I do agree something has to happen and I agree it will happen - coming to a head.
And the rule where banks don't allow you to borrow more than 3x your income is pretty accurate. When we bought our house in 2003 the interest rate was much higher, and the bank approved us up to about 3x our income. We have always had stellar credit, no debt, etc. Now (in 2012) the interest rates are low. We are moving into another house where the value is about the same as our current house, but the lower interest rate makes the monthly payment $700 lower. But the bank would still only approve us for the same amount of loan, not taking the lower monthly payments into account by letting us borrow more. Why? Because getting a loan at all is harder now. The banks are very cautious with who they lend to and how much. The process is much more document heavy, etc. So the banks are NOT letting you borrow more to offset lower interest rates. And housing market values on LI do not match most LI homeowners' incomes. So many homeowners are struggling to pay for the asociated costs of owning a home worth so much...taxes, insurance, etc.
Yes I read the article and they are complaining, but they usually cave in eventually after teachers and other public employees threaten declining property values. There was even this resident in the article paying up to $50K in taxes.
On LI, as the property taxes get higher on a middle class home, the selling price goes down. Even mediocre and ugly, crowded parts of Queens that have houses with tiny yards cost more than a "decent middle class" neighborhood on Long Island. In the better parts of Queens the prices for what used to be middle class homes are in the stratosphere. Reason? Big property tax difference so the sellers can get more out of the buyers. Of course, maybe it's different for those types of communities that tend to attract investment bankers and retired multi-millionaire mansion dwellers (as interviewed in the article).
Unfortunately, sneakyvegan has a very good point. As long as there are places where residents are willing to pay teachers and admins those unrealistic salaries no matter what, there will always be a job waiting for them and the districts paying less are stuck with the less capable...
Many of us are in places were we are no longer willing to pay those unrealistic salaries, and despite voting out our local BoEs, we find ourselves with contracts which are very favorable to the teachers (good for them and their union) but are growing rapidly unaffordable to the residents.
Another point to consider is the nepotism (of sorts) found within LI school districts. If your mother/aunt/grandfather taught in the ABC school district and you're looking for a job, chances are you, too, will find yourself working for the ABC district. It has nothing to do with what an applicant knows as opposed to who the applicant knows and by no means is it a guarantee that we will receive the most capable.
I know of a few women who have 'done their time' in NYC schools while waiting tirelessly for a position to open up on LI or in Westchester. Of the 3, only 1 was able to make the leap this year. She wound up engaged to a guy who's father's brother taught in a school in Westchester. Things that make you go hmmmm?
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Private schools are different. While they pay less, they also offer teachers a lot of freedom in conducting the lesson plan as well as admins to implement their own policies. They can also be selective with the kinds of students they admit. That's why good teachers in private schools are willing to settle for lower pay and benefits.
I know of a few women who have 'done their time' in NYC schools while waiting tirelessly for a position to open up on LI or in Westchester. Of the 3, only 1 was able to make the leap this year. She wound up engaged to a guy who's father's brother taught in a school in Westchester. Things that make you go hmmmm?
On LI, as the property taxes get higher on a middle class home, the selling price goes down. Even mediocre and ugly, crowded parts of Queens that have houses with tiny yards cost more than a "decent middle class" neighborhood on Long Island. In the better parts of Queens the prices for what used to be middle class homes are in the stratosphere. Reason? Big property tax difference so the sellers can get more out of the buyers. Of course, maybe it's different for those types of communities that tend to attract investment bankers and retired multi-millionaire mansion dwellers (as interviewed in the article).
Yes, the rising property taxes on Long Island are going to crush sales of average homes in the coming years, especially if today's ultra-low mortgage rates start to rise. In South Shore Nassau, for example, you have some half million dollar homes with taxes approaching or even exceeding $20K. The pool of buyers for that kind of house can't afford to carry the mortgage, taxes and other living expenses. If taxes continue to rise, which they likely will, it will make such homes even less desirable.
I know of a few women who have 'done their time' in NYC schools while waiting tirelessly for a position to open up on LI or in Westchester. Of the 3, only 1 was able to make the leap this year. She wound up engaged to a guy who's father's brother taught in a school in Westchester. Things that make you go hmmmm?
That doesn't happen in private industry?
Agree 100%. These people complain about things teachers do that hey do every single day. Look in the mirror before you throw stones.
Yes, the rising property taxes on Long Island are going to crush sales of average homes in the coming years, especially if today's ultra-low mortgage rates start to rise. In South Shore Nassau, for example, you have some half million dollar homes with taxes approaching or even exceeding $20K. The pool of buyers for that kind of house can't afford to carry the mortgage, taxes and other living expenses. If taxes continue to rise, which they likely will, it will make such homes even less desirable.
Yet the supporters of the status quo will argue, "Move away then if you cannot afford it. I want to live in Beverly Hills, but I can't afford it. You're not entitled to live wherever you want if you can't afford it. Good riddance to you!"
Yet what they don't think about is: Will someone who CAN afford it downgrade in type of home and move there as a favor to them and their public sector union buddies and just continue to pay unlimited property taxes?
What do they think? If the taxes in Levittown go up to an average of $25,000 per year are people with the means to pay that going to move into those middle class homes to keep the gravy train running ... or will those homes be sitting empty?
Another point to consider is the nepotism (of sorts) found within LI school districts. If your mother/aunt/grandfather taught in the ABC school district and you're looking for a job, chances are you, too, will find yourself working for the ABC district. It has nothing to do with what an applicant knows as opposed to who the applicant knows and by no means is it a guarantee that we will receive the most capable.
WRONG!
1. Several LI school districts have passed rules against this nepotism. I know for a fact that Garden City will not hire a family member of another teacher, administrator, etc. into the district. My neighbor is a teacher in the Garden City district and when her daughter became a teacher the district hiring committee said that a rule was passed that they cannot hire family members.
2. You're making it sound like this nepotism doesn't happen in the private sector. I can tell you several people I know who got jobs in a good private sector company/business because they had a family member or close friend who worked there.
So you can't use the nepotism argument when arguing what salaries a LI teacher deserves because for one, its not as prominent now as you think because of rules being passed and two, nepotism happens in every industry.
That's a whole other problem which we can discuss on "Politics and Other Controversies" as it has to do with national politics and the whole USA, not just LI. If you make a thread to discuss it, please let me know. I can go on and on about the unfair advantage corporations and their lobbyists have over the taxpayers too. It's a similar power story to our local public sector unions.
How about property taxes minus LI school tax, which are still very high.
Are you aware that New York State workers make 21% higher salary than workers for other states? To be honest, some of these state workers do nothing but sit at a computer all day. How do I know this, because I used to work for the New York State government for several years. In many professions the starting salary is around $50-$60K and it's not unusual to make $90-$100k+ after several years there. What is even more ridiculous is that upstate NY has a very low COL, so a high salary is not needed to live comfortably. The locals in Albany used always say "most jobs aren't high paying in the area, unless you work for the state government."
So why don't you go on the general NY state forum and complain about state worker salaries like the way you do with LI teachers?
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