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We're talking about the only thing that matters here, overspending on LI and total taxes paid. Your whole argument here has become meaningless. Bottom line- Spending is too high, taxes are too high.
Agreed...
Quote:
C'mon kid..Sorry for the typo, but you couldn't put 2+2 together with the chart to get what I meant..eesh. What I meant was MHI to Median Home Values. We are in-line with the rest of the country. Care to dispute that? The reason I brought up foreclosures is because those should be much higher here, if what you claim is true, that the houses are out of whack.
I think you lost my point here. What I'm getting at is you said "3x your gross income" is the max anyone can borrow. And that median home values being a factor of 4-5x MHI here means LI home prices are "out of whack".
I put up the chart of the US as a whole being around the same ratio as LI (4x). If you're asking can someone borrow over 3x their gross to buy a house, the answer is yes. It's likely closer to 4x gross with the average rates over the last 10 years.
$400k borrowed @ 5% = $2147/mo (nothing fuzzy about that)
+ $853/month T+I = $3000/mo
$36k (PITI) a year for someone grossing $100k. 4x to gross income.
So yeah, teachers and cops can survive on $100k like the rest us commoners, even on one salary alone. And that is for a $500k home. Must they all be required to have only 1 spouse working and living in half million $ homes? The majority of LI'ers need dual incomes.
*Bear in mind interest rates are now around 3.75% which would change the 'multiple to gross income' to as much as 4.5x. As I said, it's a moving target. Was it always 3x your gross income? Even when interest rates were 13%?
$400k borrowed @ 3.75% = $1853/mo
Also note that down payments are not always the standard 10-20%. Many people put down 30% or higher.
Look, no one's saying it's easy peasy here, because it's not. But what I'm trying to show is the housing market here is what it is in a $93k MHI region. Neither of us are smarter than the market. What I'm saying is many people survive here on income around the MHI. So it pisses me off that any raise most people in the private sector expected next year (if they even got a raise) just got wiped out by this tax increase....which is going to further boost already excessive salaries in the public sector. The only thing bloated here are the taxes.
And for others comparing the public sector to private, they are two different animals. As others have said, we do not pay property taxes to pharma ceos or oil companies. Those are both issues that need to be tackled at the federal level and have nothing to do with local gov't issues we are discussing here.
I thought so - but I was shocked that NYS was 6x on average? That's crazy and simply not sustainable. I'm into this house down here mortgaged less then 2x my gross salary (not dual income), while paying less than a 1/3 of what my property taxes would be on a similarly priced LI home. These are not insignificant metrics when you consider foreclosures... Did folks go bonkers in ~2005-2008 buying McMansions with marble toilets in ReloVille, USA? Yes. Did that result in a huge uptick in foreclosures? Yes. Were there also people during these times dipping into the HELOC ATM debt trough on LI? Absolutely. Did folks learn from this and the banks crack down? Somewhat. But ultimately you have to think in the big picture... How much of this has cleared at this point and what's the impact going to be down the road?
Income for middle earners (many of which are the "union" types per this thread) are already reasonable in the relocation hotspots - they pay their teachers and cops pittance in comparison to LI. They also don't have to support huge liabilities long into the future for the sweet pension deals awarded to the top tiers of the civil servants in NYS. There is reasonably priced housing stock... someone earning 60k and starting a family... you can buy a small home in a safe neighborhood for 200k. Put 10% down and you're mortgaging 180k at 4% and paying 2k in property taxes. This is a sustainable housing market even in the face of rising interest rates, stagnant incomes, rising property taxes (they're going to continue going up everywhere), and general inflation (which is already hitting us).
In comparison, you're throwing housing numbers around for LI that are not sustainable. 500k with 30% down - seriously?!... yes, if you're selling a house and taking a profit. Mortgaging 400k with a 100k MHI - that's a disaster waiting to happen. What about people starting a family? I guess they just rent because... Speaking conservatively on the LOW side - that 200k relo house is easily 300k+... that 2k relo property taxes easily become 6k+. You need to explain to me how you sustain this as interest rates go up, incomes go down (this is the crux of your whole plan here to lower salaries), rising property taxes, and general inflation. How can that work? You seem very good with math so maybe you can explain that to me.
ForestHillsDaddy- What do you think inclusion means? It is not the same as integrated or collaboratively co taught classrooms. Inclusion is that kids with needs and those without share a classroom. You as a private school parent have no idea if a kid in your child's class has special needs or not or if they have an IEP or not. That is confidential information that only the local public school district knows. Again, some kids ARE getting support from therapy services, etc and some of these therapists are consulting with the teachers so that these kids can do just fine in the regular private school classroom. This service is provided by the local public district though. And this is the law. Private schools are not immune to the law. You just don't know about it bbecause most kids with IEPs or 504s are not a disruption to the class and are doing just fine. These are not the kids with severe special needs who, despite these related services, cannot function in a general class setting.
You said it yourself - simply putting the same kids in the same classroom is inclusion in the simplest form. How many parents of special needs kids, especially those with very serious needs, will accept inclusion in the simplest form? Do you think they will be happy if their kids keep getting Ds or being sent to the principal's office for disrupting the class, as some kids with difficulties do? So while technically you can put them in the same class, it is the burden of the student to keep up with the rest of the class and not the teachers'. As long as they can keep up with everyone else then the other parents won't care. Here are some past comments by other posters that demonstrate such risks in case you are downplaying it:
And I'm not talking about what the law requires public schools to do. I am not contesting it though I wish it wouldn't make such requirements. Setting aside the taxes I pay, I wouldn't care if my kids go to private schools.
Because most kids with special needs are not disruptive with severe special needs. Most kids with special needs can, with support, function in a regular classroom. And yes, teachers in private schools DO have some kids with IEPs who need modifications, as determined by their IEPs set forth by the public school districts.
My issue is that you are using the terms "special needs", "severe special needs" and "disruptive" interchangeably. I never said kids with severe special needs or disruptive kids are thriving in private schools or that they are in private schools at all. But there are kids with special needs and IEPs in private schools who are in private schools and are succeeding, due to modifications and services being implemented by the local public school district. So to say that kids with special needs do not exist in private schools is a fallacy, plain and simple. So someone going to private school will not be in a speciall needs free environment. And the therapists do consult with private school teachers to make sure that the needs of these kids are met within a regular ed setting in private school.
I have been contracted by public school districts many times to provide services to a child in a local private school, in order to comply with their IEP.
You cannot generalize the term special needs. Some of the most brilliant and successful and famous minds have Aspergers.
Well, you bring up a good point. The deal with civil servants is that they are supposed to get "perks" in exchange for a lower salary. But we reached that tipping point and went way to far in the other direction a long time ago. YOu can't have great pay AND have great benefits on the backs of taxpayers. That's why all this talk of a living wage is such malarkey. It's not as if the only teaching jobs are on Long Island. You can teach anywhere in the country. But you don't get those Cadillac benefits along with the ridiculous salary most other places. When people are saying the salary should be driven by market forces, that's what they mean. There's literally 1000s of people trying to get teaching jobs on LI, let's not be silly and say none of them are remotely qualified. If there are that many people trying there must be a reason. Also, the vast majority of teachers are still women. These people are not the breadwinners of their families. Let's be realistic about that as well. Maybe nowadays they can be, but when most of these teachers started - no. And most male teachers (and many female teachers) will have a job over the summer - lifeguarding, working at a camp, doing something thru the school, etc. And invariably they are the driver's ed teachers and coaches for sports teams - who else could get there on time to do these jobs? They get paid for that too.
Here is the deal about that. Late '70's/early '80's, teams "coached" by gym teachers as part of job/salary. Someone gets a bright idea that we can add a "stipend", for example, for being the football coach, baseball coach, track coach, etc. Now the members of the Athletic Dept. are making more than the subject teachers, and they want in, so now we institute the "frills" with stipends, to all clubs, i.e the science, club, drama, band, chorus, etc. I about blew a gasket a year or so ago, when reviewing the minutes of the meeting and found that my district pays an "Equipment Manager" (another stipend) $4,000 to keep track of the bats, balls etc. Our district has just under 2700 kids district wide. When I was in H.S. there were 1800 in the H.S. alone and the Athletic director kept track of the equipment as part of his job!
The real problem however, is apathy under the guise of being too busy. Though childless, I am a champion of kids and fought tooth and nail for programs for them at every board meeting for many, many years. It was always the same fight..... take from the kids because we need the $$ for salaries and benefits. BUT, unless it was something out of the ordinary, there were at most under 30 people at most board meetings. C'mon, people, surely you can attend one meeting a month. I am not asking for a solid attendance record and I know that we lead very busy lives today but with your
I phone in hand, you will hardly miss a beat and still become informed about what is going on in your district.
Because most kids with special needs are not disruptive with severe special needs. Most kids with special needs can, with support, function in a regular classroom. And yes, teachers in private schools DO have some kids with IEPs who need modifications, as determined by their IEPs set forth by the public school districts.
My issue is that you are using the terms "special needs", "severe special needs" and "disruptive" interchangeably. I never said kids with severe special needs or disruptive kids are thriving in private schools or that they are in private schools at all. But there are kids with special needs and IEPs in private schools who are in private schools and are succeeding, due to modifications and services being implemented by the local public school district. So to say that kids with special needs do not exist in private schools is a fallacy. And the therapists do consult with private school teachers to make sure that the needs of these kids are met within a regular ed setting in private school.
If you read the thread I referenced, that public school makes no distinction about the severity of neediness that it admits to its classes and it looks like it can't do anything about it. Private schools have a say on what will be tolerated in the classroom and most of them will require the ones with needs to keep up with the ones without - the standards are set to meet the expectations for the average and advanced kids, not the ones with difficulties. I think you very well know that most parents of special needs children will not consider this "inclusion". Also, as the posters in the thread imply, disruptions, distractions and compromises to the lesson plan hapen more often than what you are suggesting
And once again, having peace of mind that programs will always be in place is valuable.
Mongoose- I agree. But why is it necessary for a district with less than 200 in a graduating class to have 3 superintendants? It is not. That is why I said there needs to be closer examination of the staffing cost not JUST from the bottom up, but ALSO from the top down. It's only fair that the entire district be looked at, rather than certain people ALWAYS being immune.
I do not know of any Districts that small (or at all) with 3 Superintendents. Most reasonably sized Districts have 1 Superintendent and 3 Assistants (Business, Curriculum and HR/Personnel). I actually know what the Assistants do. I'm not sure what the Superintendent herself does. LOL
Here in Sayville there is one superintendant, one assistant superintendant and one deputy superintendant (or superintendant of curriculum). Each of them has their own support staff. And we are very small. So small that you have to beg for federally mandated programs, to have them tell you "well we are such a small district, you know". This is completely unnecessary. Sigh.
Listing for NY state jobs only show the starting salary. What website are you referring to? I want to see if it's credible. Trust me I know how much state workers get paid because I used to work for the New York State Government. I worked for the NYS Department of Health. My bosses made well over $100,000 annually and many of my co-workers made $80,000k annually after several years.
Fact: NY state workers make 21% more than other state workers. Google it.
You can also spend some time with the locals in Albany, they'll tell you that only the state workers make the high salaries in the area.
What I just said, that is the biggest myth. Maybe 20 years ago that was true, but in 2012 no way.
Your own post proves my point. YOU are complaining about $80K a year for coworkers and over $100K a year for bosses ... yet you defend teacher and administrator compensation on LI? If you think what state workers earn is BAD, then how in the world can you defend LI's school district compensation with a straight face? Maybe you are just messing with us.
The figures you are complaining about are NOWHERE NEAR THE SAME LEAGUE of egregiousness as what is going on in LI's school districts.
For LI's school districts "co-workers" (rank and file teachers, including gym teachers and kindergarten teachers) can be making $150K ... or around TWICE the $80K you are complaining about state workers -- for a short work year of 180 days. And the "bosses" (superintendants and administrators) can be making over $200K to $500K a year ... a range of at the very least TWICE the $100K you are complaining about state bosses earning and up to FIVE TIMES the $100K you are complaining about state bosses earning.
In NY the private sector makes more than NYS government workers for every job category there is. LOL. Why do you think they ALWAYS have openings for computer programmers and software developers? That $33K or $36K does not go very far, and if you live in an expensive part of NY, the "downstate salary differential" of something like a measly $1200 a year is NOTHING compared to what it actually costs to live. Why do you think NYS is ALWAYS looking for medical professionals? Because what they pay is LAUGHABLE compared to what a medical professional can get in the private sector. And on and on with other professions.
Oh, that is such B.S. I can think of several people who were hired in the past few years that are related to people already working there. My son's 2nd grade teacher had a daughter who was an education major when he had her....guess who was on the list of new hires last year? That's just one of many. Not going to post names on a public forum but there are plenty of examples. All you have to do is read the BOE meeting minutes and look at who is already employed. And if it's not a district employee, it's a village employee getting a child hired into the district. My MIL is heavily involved in the GC political scene and she's thoroughly disgusted by what is going on there.
I DO know they enforce that rule selectively, because I know someone whose sister couldn't get hired because the mother worked in the district. They cited this "rule", which she immediately called them out on, but what was she gonna do - they wouldn't budge. It can be a convenience when they simply don't want to hire someone. In this case, it was someone who was already in the system from another district - GC tries to keep costs down by hiring right out of college so I suspect that was the reason this person was not hired. Too expensive.
They may have a "rule" but they aren't following it.
Nepotism does run rampant in the private sector too, no doubt about it. Company I used to work for - you weren't getting in if you didn't know someone or weren't related to someone.
When you bring up $4700/yr for taxes in NoVA is this only school tax or total property tax? You can't compare Virginia property taxes to New York property taxes. Overall Virginia has much lower property tax rate than Long Island, even when you exclude LI school taxes. It's an apples to orange comparison. You're saying that with reduced school taxes you can afford an extra $25,000 for a house. Sorry but going from $350,000 to $375,000 there is usually not much of a difference in house features, not a big upgrade at all.
My point is that if you reduce school taxes or exclude them, property taxes are still very high on LI. High property taxes seem to be a Northeastern state thing.
Virginia has no teachers' unions. A world of difference for the taxpayers.
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What I meant was MHI to Median Home Values. We are in-line with the rest of the country. Care to dispute that? The reason I brought up foreclosures is because those should be much higher here, if what you claim is true, that the houses are out of whack.
LOL
