LI Teacher's Salaries (Albany, Garden City, Fairfield: utilities, wages, live in)
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Exactly. And for those who complain that they want schools to be run more like private sector businesses- if this were to happen, you would MOST DEFINITELY see an increase in this kind of nepotism. Not only that, but tell me with a straight face that in the private business world, there are not bosses who play favorites, promoting their buddies who are not always the most qualified employees. The most qualified are passed up for promotions all the time. Workplace politics-blech.
There are overpaid teachers for sure. And I applaud those districts who agreed to pay freezes for several years, as no one should be getting a raise in this economy. I honestly don't believe that there should have ever been a choice in the matter.
But as someone else pointed out, they never seem to get around to cutting administrative costs. Many teachers HAVE been excessed, but the extra superintendants remain untouched and there are some grossly ovverpaid assistant and deputy superintendants. I think that while looking at cutting costs from the bottom, someone should be cutting wasteful spending at the top, as I truly believe that this is where a lot of the problems lie. The evaluation system is in place to hold teachers accountable. Who is holding the superintendants responsible? There should be a limit to how many administrators there can be based on a particular district size. Why should a tiny district like Sayville have the same number of superintendants as a huge district like Bellmore-Merrick or Half Hollow Hills or Commack? This should not be allowed. What about that Syosset superintendant that made the news for her exhorbitant salary? Or the Roslyn scandal from a few years ago? Who is holding these administrators with deep pockets accountable for doing their job right and in a noncorrupt manner that is in the best interest of the kids? Honestly, the teachers need to answer to everyone- parents, the state, etc and the ones at the top answer to no one.-
1. Several LI school districts have passed rules against this nepotism. I know for a fact that Garden City will not hire a family member of another teacher, administrator, etc. into the district. My neighbor is a teacher in the Garden City district and when her daughter became a teacher the district hiring committee said that a rule was passed that they cannot hire family members.
2. You're making it sound like this nepotism doesn't happen in the private sector. I can tell you several people I know who got jobs in a good private sector company/business because they had a family member or close friend who worked there.
So you can't use the nepotism argument when arguing what salaries a LI teacher deserves because for one, its not as prominent now as you think because of rules being passed and two, nepotism happens in every industry.
Several? I serious doubt that. You personally can only come up with one example, Garden City. That's one, not several.
And there must have been one heck of a BIG HONKING PROBLEM for that school district to even acknowledge, let alone outlaw, nepotism. So multiply that problem by over 100 other school districts.
The private sector isn't paid by my property taxes so it is none of my business. I don't approve of nepotism though.
Last edited by I_Love_LI_but; 10-10-2012 at 04:27 PM..
How about property taxes minus LI school tax, which are still very high.
Are you aware that New York State workers make 21% higher salary than workers for other states? To be honest, some of these state workers do nothing but sit at a computer all day. How do I know this, because I used to work for the New York State government for several years. In many professions the starting salary is around $50-$60K and it's not unusual to make $90-$100k+ after several years there. What is even more ridiculous is that upstate NY has a very low COL, so a high salary is not needed to live comfortably. The locals in Albany used always say "most jobs aren't high paying in the area, unless you work for the state government."
So why don't you go on the general NY state forum and complain about state worker salaries like the way you do with LI teachers?
That is not what I have seen with NYS pay. Go browse the listings for their jobs. It will show the pay for each and every one of them. Then tell me if you can live on that. I can't. The pay is lower than the private sector, sometimes significantly lower, for the most part.
Last edited by I_Love_LI_but; 10-10-2012 at 04:33 PM..
Exactly. And for those who complain that they want schools to be run more like private sector businesses- if this were to happen, you would MOST DEFINITELY see an increase in this kind of nepotism. Not only that, but tell me with a straight face that in the private business world, there are not bosses who play favorites, promoting their buddies who are not always the most qualified employees. The most qualified are passed up for promotions all the time. Workplace politics-blech.
There are overpaid teachers for sure. And I applaud those districts who agreed to pay freezes for several years, as no one should be getting a raise in this economy. I honestly don't believe that there should have ever been a choice in the matter.
But as someone else pointed out, they never seem to get around to cutting administrative costs. Many teachers HAVE been excessed, but the extra superintendants remain untouched and there are some grossly ovverpaid assistant and deputy superintendants. I think that while looking at cutting costs from the bottom, someone should be cutting wasteful spending at the top, as I truly believe that this is where a lot of the problems lie. The evaluation system is in place to hold teachers accountable. Who is holding the superintendants responsible? There should be a limit to how many administrators there can be based on a particular district size. Why should a tiny district like Sayville have the same number of superintendants as a huge district like Bellmore-Merrick or Half Hollow Hills or Commack? This should not be allowed. What about that Syosset superintendant that made the news for her exhorbitant salary? Or the Roslyn scandal from a few years ago? Who is holding these administrators with deep pockets accountable for doing their job right and in a noncorrupt manner that is in the best interest of the kids? Honestly, it seems like the teachers must answer to everyoneparents, the state, etc and the ones at the top answer to no one.-
Oh that's their main sacred cow. I know it. I remember when there was talk of combining the 3 Valley Stream SDs (13, 24, and 30). When the plan was presented, there was "savings" noted by laying off redundant teachers and employees such as office staff. Who wasn't noted as redundant? They still wanted to keep all three school supers and the entire cavalry of their assistant supers, administrators, etc. Yes, this was presented with a straight face by one of the OUTGOING school superintendants. (I doubt he would have dared to try and hoodwink the taxpayers like this if he wasn't outgoing.) Of course, the plan as written wasn't going to save much money for the taxpayers and the taxpayers of one of the districts would see their property taxes going up.
Another lovely tradition is hiring a retired superintendant who then can double dip and get a check for their full pension while getting a check for their new f/t job.
Remember when Gov. Cuomo noted how the school supers on LI make way more than the Gov. of NYS? So far though there has been no new law to limit public servant pay in NY to less than that of the governor.
Ever wonder how things got so out of hand compensation wise with school superintendants and administrators?
The teachers' unions.
As the teachers' unions successfully got more and more and more for their members, the school superintendants and their administrators demand MORE PLUS insist they do SIGNIFICANTLY better than what the teachers get, because, after all, they are the bosses of the teachers. It just wouldn't do to pay a low level school administrator $125K a year when the gym teacher is getting $150K, would it? That's how the gravy train that is LI school districts got rolling. Voila, the $500K+ school superintendant (Syosset) with perks equal to a rockstar private sector executive ruling over a small fiefdom of a school district.
Listen, we either have to agree to talk in terms of tax rate (a percentage of the assessed value) or total taxes paid (your actual bill). This is an important distinction because it's intuitive that the highest values will pay the highest total taxes... BUT, if Joe Bob is paying 2% in property taxes of assessed value in Upstateawanda and Mary is paying the same rate in Upper Brookville - how is that not "fair" from a state perspective?
We're talking about the only thing that matters here, overspending on LI and total taxes paid. Your whole argument here has become meaningless. Bottom line- Spending is too high, taxes are too high.
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Originally Posted by MikeyKid
The rest of your argument here is confusing me... you're comparing median household income to MHI? Aren't they the same thing? lol Those 4x, 6x, etc - what am I trying to do with those? Are you saying NYS as a whole has median home values 6x the MHI? I mean, I hope that is not the correct stat. wow
C'mon kid..Sorry for the typo, but you couldn't put 2+2 together with the chart to get what I meant..eesh. What I meant was MHI to Median Home Values. We are in-line with the rest of the country. Care to dispute that? The reason I brought up foreclosures is because those should be much higher here, if what you claim is true, that the houses are out of whack.
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Originally Posted by MikeyKid
This is horrendously fuzzy math and you're using it to make my case - so I don't get it... In simplest terms I'm arguing that it's more difficult to borrow more money with less income. You seem to be countering this point by saying higher interest rates, LTV, and DTI will factor in - well, of course they do. But they ALL mean you can only borrow LESS. There is no formula for these factors that mean you can borrow more than 3x your gross income - so, please hit me with more math proving that number is too HIGH. That's exactly my point!
I think you lost my point here. What I'm getting at is you said "3x your gross income" is the max anyone can borrow. And that median home values being a factor of 4-5x MHI here means LI home prices are "out of whack".
I put up the chart of the US as a whole being around the same ratio as LI (4x). If you're asking can someone borrow over 3x their gross to buy a house, the answer is yes. It's likely closer to 4x gross with the average rates over the last 10 years.
$400k borrowed @ 5% = $2147/mo (nothing fuzzy about that)
+ $853/month T+I = $3000/mo
$36k (PITI) a year for someone grossing $100k. 4x to gross income.
So yeah, teachers and cops can survive on $100k like the rest us commoners, even on one salary alone. And that is for a $500k home. Must they all be required to have only 1 spouse working and living in half million $ homes? The majority of LI'ers need dual incomes.
*Bear in mind interest rates are now around 3.75% which would change the 'multiple to gross income' to as much as 4.5x. As I said, it's a moving target. Was it always 3x your gross income? Even when interest rates were 13%?
$400k borrowed @ 3.75% = $1853/mo
Also note that down payments are not always the standard 10-20%. Many people put down 30% or higher.
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Foreclosures are a whole other discussion. Ask yourself how many LIers could even afford to look at their own houses should they need to buy them today - your banking ratios would be off the charts. Then consider how much they owe in the face of exponentially escalating COL and taxes... and please don't pretend parents/grandparents gifting huge down payments are a good healthy way to drive the housing market.
Look, no one's saying it's easy peasy here, because it's not. But what I'm trying to show is the housing market here is what it is in a $93k MHI region. Neither of us are smarter than the market. What I'm saying is many people survive here on income around the MHI. So it pisses me off that any raise most people in the private sector expected next year (if they even got a raise) just got wiped out by this tax increase....which is going to further boost already excessive salaries in the public sector. The only thing bloated here are the taxes.
And for others comparing the public sector to private, they are two different animals. As others have said, we do not pay property taxes to pharma ceos or oil companies. Those are both issues that need to be tackled at the federal level and have nothing to do with local gov't issues we are discussing here.
^^ Yes, but what you and others fail to realize is the pharma CEO's don't teach YOUR children. What's more valuable, a few pills or who educates your children and helps them grow up? Sorry, but talk to me when teachers are getting million dollar bonuses like the pharma and big oil CEO's, until then you can't put a price on the education of your children.
That is not what I have seen with NYS pay. Go browse the listings for their jobs. It will show the pay for each and every one of them. Then tell me if you can live on that. I can't.
Listing for NY state jobs only show the starting salary. What website are you referring to? I want to see if it's credible. Trust me I know how much state workers get paid because I used to work for the New York State Government. I worked for the NYS Department of Health. My bosses made well over $100,000 annually and many of my co-workers made $80,000k annually after several years.
Fact: NY state workers make 21% more than other state workers. Google it.
I know of a few women who have 'done their time' in NYC schools while waiting tirelessly for a position to open up on LI or in Westchester. Of the 3, only 1 was able to make the leap this year. She wound up engaged to a guy who's father's brother taught in a school in Westchester. Things that make you go hmmmm?
That doesn't happen in private industry?
Yes, but then again, this thread is not about private industry -- is it now?
1. Several LI school districts have passed rules against this nepotism. I know for a fact that Garden City will not hire a family member of another teacher, administrator, etc. into the district. My neighbor is a teacher in the Garden City district and when her daughter became a teacher the district hiring committee said that a rule was passed that they cannot hire family members.
That's ONE district. Show me where the other 100+ districts on LI have that.
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2. You're making it sound like this nepotism doesn't happen in the private sector. I can tell you several people I know who got jobs in a good private sector company/business because they had a family member or close friend who worked there.
Our school taxes are not paying for nepotism in the private sector.
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So you can't use the nepotism argument when arguing what salaries a LI teacher deserves because for one, its not as prominent now as you think because of rules being passed and two, nepotism happens in every industry.
Once again, our school taxes are not used in the private sector. If I don't like a company in the private sector -- I have the option of not patronizing it. They won't get my money. If I don't like the public school, I will still be required to pay school taxes while paying for tuition at a private school.
The argument is not for what salary a teacher deserves based on nepotism; the argument is that many good teachers are precluded from employment by districts which make a point of hiring mediocre relatives of current employees.
1. Several LI school districts have passed rules against this nepotism. I know for a fact that Garden City will not hire a family member of another teacher, administrator, etc. into the district. My neighbor is a teacher in the Garden City district and when her daughter became a teacher the district hiring committee said that a rule was passed that they cannot hire family members.
.
Oh, that is such B.S. I can think of several people who were hired in the past few years that are related to people already working there. My son's 2nd grade teacher had a daughter who was an education major when he had her....guess who was on the list of new hires last year? That's just one of many. Not going to post names on a public forum but there are plenty of examples. All you have to do is read the BOE meeting minutes and look at who is already employed. And if it's not a district employee, it's a village employee getting a child hired into the district. My MIL is heavily involved in the GC political scene and she's thoroughly disgusted by what is going on there.
I DO know they enforce that rule selectively, because I know someone whose sister couldn't get hired because the mother worked in the district. They cited this "rule", which she immediately called them out on, but what was she gonna do - they wouldn't budge. It can be a convenience when they simply don't want to hire someone. In this case, it was someone who was already in the system from another district - GC tries to keep costs down by hiring right out of college so I suspect that was the reason this person was not hired. Too expensive.
They may have a "rule" but they aren't following it.
Nepotism does run rampant in the private sector too, no doubt about it. Company I used to work for - you weren't getting in if you didn't know someone or weren't related to someone.
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What I meant was MHI to Median Home Values. We are in-line with the rest of the country. Care to dispute that? The reason I brought up foreclosures is because those should be much higher here, if what you claim is true, that the houses are out of whack. 
