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I realize that this is a very subjective issue, but wanted to ask for input...
I've been on the East Coast all of my life, with the exception of graduate school in Chicago several years back (loved it there). I'm in New England now, but have been looking to change jobs. I'm looking into an interesting position in Madison, but I really don't know how different of a feel our lives (my wife's and mine) would have there. I understand that Madison is a liberal, progressive, generally educated town (plusses in my book). We're Jewish, though generally secular, and would want to feel that there is a community there. My wife would probably joke that we would be happy anywhere with good ethnic restaurants (especially Thai), and some areas with at least a pseudo-city feel. Other than not being near an ocean, I'm wondering what the most blatant changes are going to be. For what it's worth, I couldn't imagine relocating to neighboring states such as Iowa or Kansas (no offense intended to anyone). The mental bias against the Midwest seems to be pretty common. Over the weekend, I mentioned this opportunity to my sister-in-law, who said "they are probably have such difficulty getting anyone to move out there". Obviously not a fair statement
Again, I realize that it's all subjective, but would appreciate your thoughts.
You'll get as many answers to this as there are boosters, cranks, and people with time on their hands who may or may not ever have lived in Madison, so trust yourself when the thought occurs that the only way you'll be able to decide about the feasibility and wisdom of this move is to come yourself and see.
My view: Madison is a pleasant small city in the Midwest where lots of people build very contented lives but which a minority of newcomers decide is too something: too small, too Midwestern, too white, too university, too liberal, too mainstream, too not-as-great-as-I-thought-it- was-going-to-be.
As for the conventional wisdom:
Yes, the politics are generally progressive but it's hardly Wobbly/Sierra Club Paradise; there's a full range of views on everything, including idiot views (thank goodness, I say).
Yes, it's a generally pretty place, with the lakes and all, and the arboretum, and nice neighborhoods, but some newcomers expect a piece of heaven on earth, and the town does not live up to unrealistic expectations. The architecture is singularly, almost uniformly uninteresting, for example. And the Isthmus is great but too many people try to drive into it in SUVs on too many busy one-way streets. And over the last twenty years the city has grown considerably, sprawling all out over central Dane County, spawning bedroom communities, subdivisions, and big-box hells like everywhere else. All this despite valiant efforts in years past to keep it from happening. (There's a kind of quiet, land-use despair around here, I think, as in, "Alas, even Madison couldn't stop the onslaught of urban- fringe awful; the best we've been able to do is save some bits and keep the sprawl from becoming extreme.")
On with the conventional wisdom:
There are lots of creative people here in all of the arts, including some high talents, as you'd expect in a university town, but (again, this is just my take) there is not a strong feeling of vibrancy or obvious creative community in Madison visible for all to see. No one would expect a Soho or Chelsea, or even an Austin or Minneapolis or Seattle music scene, the city is too small for that, but because of this tucking-away into the spare bedroom of lots of Madison's creativity, many creative people (writers, musicians, artists of all kinds) experience Madison as a congenial host city but not as a place where talent is combusting into something that just might change the world.
The University is great. It means a lot to the city and to many (though not all) of the people who live here. The campus is a Madison centerpiece, no doubt about it. However, a decade or two of budget neglect has left the campus -- as a place -- feeling raggedy. And though local people don't like to hear it, as an aesthetic experience the UW-Madison never could hold a candle to universities that have interesting architecture and are not interlaced with high-traffic, high-speed arterial streets.
The city works well. Crime is not rampant (crank alert on this one). The public schools still are good. And for a city of its size Madison offers lots to do. Restaurants? They're more numerous and better than in most cities this size, but if you're "eating-out" kinds of people you'll have exhausted the range in a year or two and will settle into the Madison pattern, which is to have six or eight favorite spots you go back to again and again while looking forward to trying the new places that do open up from time to time.
The culture is, well, Midwestern, which means (my laundry list of today) reasonably thoughtful, generous, mostly rational if not always intellectual, aggressively egalitarian, accommodating, friendly but reserved (most people here do not open up like East- and West-Coast people do), slower paced, down-to-earth, a bit overly prideful (i.e., insecure), and really very nice.
On the Jewish question, no worries. The community is substantial and runs the gamut.
Finally, allow me to defend other Midwestern states. Iowa and Kansas, not to mention Nebraska, are shockingly lovely places inhabited by fine, mostly intelligent and (I mean this!) worldly people, not New Yorkers, not East Coasters, not West Coasters, but intelligent, engaged, active, often extremely well educated, and, yes, worldly people. The prejudices you mention will break down as we come to grips with the fact that we all live in the same Google.
If you're thinking of moving to Madison, visit first. It's the only way. Keep your expectations reasonable. You'll probably like it. Most do. I do.
^^^ Having moved to Madison from eastern PA 11 years ago, I generally agree with Skippery Boo's assessment. Madison a place worth checking out and there is a lot to like about it.
If you can't imagine moving to Iowa or Kansas then don't bother with Madison, it is pretty similar. Otherwise I can hardly improve on Skippery Boo's great post.
Skippery Boo - I really appreciate your cogent and very well-articulated response. Thank you for taking the time and energy to share your thoughts. It definitely provides us with food for thought (as well as thought for food ;-)
Thank you Ragnar and rk for your input.
My view: Madison is a pleasant small city in the Midwest where lots of people build very contented lives but which a minority of newcomers decide is too something: too small, too Midwestern, too white, too university, too liberal, too mainstream, too not-as-great-as-I-thought-it- was-going-to-be.
You'll get as many answers to this as there are boosters, cranks, and people with time on their hands who may or may not ever have lived in Madison, so trust yourself when the thought occurs that the only way you'll be able to decide about the feasibility and wisdom of this move is to come yourself and see.
My view: Madison is a pleasant small city in the Midwest where lots of people build very contented lives but which a minority of newcomers decide is too something: too small, too Midwestern, too white, too university, too liberal, too mainstream, too not-as-great-as-I-thought-it- was-going-to-be.
As for the conventional wisdom:
Yes, the politics are generally progressive but it's hardly Wobbly/Sierra Club Paradise; there's a full range of views on everything, including idiot views (thank goodness, I say).
Yes, it's a generally pretty place, with the lakes and all, and the arboretum, and nice neighborhoods, but some newcomers expect a piece of heaven on earth, and the town does not live up to unrealistic expectations. The architecture is singularly, almost uniformly uninteresting, for example. And the Isthmus is great but too many people try to drive into it in SUVs on too many busy one-way streets. And over the last twenty years the city has grown considerably, sprawling all out over central Dane County, spawning bedroom communities, subdivisions, and big-box hells like everywhere else. All this despite valiant efforts in years past to keep it from happening. (There's a kind of quiet, land-use despair around here, I think, as in, "Alas, even Madison couldn't stop the onslaught of urban- fringe awful; the best we've been able to do is save some bits and keep the sprawl from becoming extreme.")
On with the conventional wisdom:
There are lots of creative people here in all of the arts, including some high talents, as you'd expect in a university town, but (again, this is just my take) there is not a strong feeling of vibrancy or obvious creative community in Madison visible for all to see. No one would expect a Soho or Chelsea, or even an Austin or Minneapolis or Seattle music scene, the city is too small for that, but because of this tucking-away into the spare bedroom of lots of Madison's creativity, many creative people (writers, musicians, artists of all kinds) experience Madison as a congenial host city but not as a place where talent is combusting into something that just might change the world.
The University is great. It means a lot to the city and to many (though not all) of the people who live here. The campus is a Madison centerpiece, no doubt about it. However, a decade or two of budget neglect has left the campus -- as a place -- feeling raggedy. And though local people don't like to hear it, as an aesthetic experience the UW-Madison never could hold a candle to universities that have interesting architecture and are not interlaced with high-traffic, high-speed arterial streets.
The city works well. Crime is not rampant (crank alert on this one). The public schools still are good. And for a city of its size Madison offers lots to do. Restaurants? They're more numerous and better than in most cities this size, but if you're "eating-out" kinds of people you'll have exhausted the range in a year or two and will settle into the Madison pattern, which is to have six or eight favorite spots you go back to again and again while looking forward to trying the new places that do open up from time to time.
The culture is, well, Midwestern, which means (my laundry list of today) reasonably thoughtful, generous, mostly rational if not always intellectual, aggressively egalitarian, accommodating, friendly but reserved (most people here do not open up like East- and West-Coast people do), slower paced, down-to-earth, a bit overly prideful (i.e., insecure), and really very nice.
On the Jewish question, no worries. The community is substantial and runs the gamut.
Finally, allow me to defend other Midwestern states. Iowa and Kansas, not to mention Nebraska, are shockingly lovely places inhabited by fine, mostly intelligent and (I mean this!) worldly people, not New Yorkers, not East Coasters, not West Coasters, but intelligent, engaged, active, often extremely well educated, and, yes, worldly people. The prejudices you mention will break down as we come to grips with the fact that we all live in the same Google.
If you're thinking of moving to Madison, visit first. It's the only way. Keep your expectations reasonable. You'll probably like it. Most do. I do.
Any potential Madison newcomers should be directed to this post BEFORE they do anything else.
Although I was there for only a short while, I still visit at least once/year, and would like to go more often.
If you can't imagine moving to Iowa or Kansas then don't bother with Madison, it is pretty similar. Otherwise I can hardly improve on Skippery Boo's great post.
Except for not at all, madison and points west are hilly and green with many state parks and lakes, the city it self is very metropoliton for its size and is not even compareable to confused jumbles of suburbs out in the cornfields (i.e des moines, omaha, wichita)
I lived in Madison for 12 years and finally moved back to the East Coast a couple of years ago. I agree with everything Skippery Boo said, but I still wanted to leave because I never quite felt like I fit in. As Skippery Boo mentioned, the people are friendly - but they just are not very open. Also, although there is indeed quite a bit of culture in Madison for a Midwestern city of its size, I still found the overall culture to be EXTREMELY beer/sports/outdoors-oriented (even amongst those who are into the arts), and since I'm not interested in any of those things, I found it difficult to meet many people with interests similar to mine. It's undefine-able, but I feel more comfortable on the East Coast.
Keep searching the Madison and Wisconsin forums and you will find additional discussions on this topic.
Um, where do you live on the 'East Coast,' OP? Atlantic City? And katreese - are you suggesting that Newark, DE has a more 'intellectual' culture than 'Midwestern' cities of a similar size? Um, yeah. Ooooh... the Mid-Atlantic (Ocean City, MD FTW) is soooo incredibly effete and intellectual and cultural I just can't stand it. Someone give me a cheesesteak, some creamed chip beef on toast, or a mile-high pastrami sandwich.
"Me and Stu can't stand the idea of Flyova Country - how do they get the swells like us to move theya, anyway? What if they don't have any good delis or suppa clubs?"
"...(most people here do not open up like East- and West-Coast people do), slower paced, down-to-earth, a bit overly prideful (i.e., insecure), and really very nice." This is honestly the most intellectually-impaired, 'WTF?'-inducing overgeneralization I've read on C-D in quite some time.. congratulations! Do you consider Reno-Tahoe the 'West Coast'? Do people there behave significantly differently than people in, say, Ohio? What about people in a really tiny town in inland Northern California, or Maine (hell, you should read the Maine sub-forum if you want to read about 'reserved' people), or... I could go on and on. It sounds like you're describing some kind of hive-mind or a city full of clones. THIS is absolutely what I despise, despise, despise about City-Data - what if my dad took the job he'd been offered in San Francisco when I was a kid, instead of the (better) one he ended up taking in Omaha, NE? Would I have a fundamentally different personality now? GRRRRRRRR...
What *really* annoys me is that I am now stuck on the vaunted 'East Coast' (though I'm actually no where near such cultural/ecological paragons as, say, Rehoboth, DE) and want a SALAD, dammit. The Joisey types seem to have dragged their culture down with them to the suburbs of DC (probably starting in the '60s, when the size of the Federal gov't really expanded), and their native cuisine seems to involve nothing but throwback mid-century diner and deli slop. So it reallllllly annoys me to read a post like yours, OP. Like, more than you could ever, ever, ever possibly imagine.
"For what it's worth, I couldn't imagine relocating to neighboring states such as Iowa or Kansas (no offense intended to anyone)."
And why is this? What do you know about them? Kansas City (for instance) is actually a very cool city with an incredibly vibrant restaurant scene, for one thing (including tons of James Beard award winners). How large a city are you in now? What state is it in? Get ready for my research-fu to knock your sad, greasy, over-crowded, infrastructure-poor town on its ASS.
Ah, you live in central CT... in one of those incredibly cool mill towns, maybe?
p.s. katreese said: "Also, although there is indeed quite a bit of culture in Madison for a Midwestern city of its size..." Why couldn't you just leave it 'quite a bit of culture in Madison for a CITY of its size?' Had to get a slam in there at the 'Midwest,' I suppose. And I suppose a similarly-sized city in Idaho or Arizona or South Carolina or Delaware would have more 'culture'... natch...
Oh, ONE last thing (I promise) - you might want to run your next post through a spell-check, OP... it's hazardous to the health of someone like me to absorb the enormous quantities of (unintentionally?) offensive irony inherent in a post which contains the (non)-word 'plusses' and then declares its authors unwillingness to live in 1.) the state where said 'someone like me' was born, and 2.) one of the states where (s)he grew up. Ever heard of the University of Iowa Writers' Workshop? Or even the Chicago Manual of Style?
Last edited by Alicia Bradley; 11-18-2010 at 11:00 PM..
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Madison
Do you consider Reno-Tahoe the 'West Coast'? Do people there behave significantly differently than people in, say, Ohio? What about people in a really tiny town in inland Northern California, or Maine (hell, you should read the Maine sub-forum if you want to read about 'reserved' people), or... I could go on and on. It sounds like you're describing some kind of hive-mind or a city full of clones. THIS is absolutely what I despise, despise, despise about City-Data - what if my dad took the job he'd been offered in San Francisco when I was a kid, instead of the (better) one he ended up taking in Omaha, NE? Would I have a fundamentally different personality now? GRRRRRRRR...
