Torrefied wood pellets in Millinocket

[cebdark]

Originally Posted by Submariner

So a private group tosses in $35 Million and tax-payers toss in $30 Million to employ 36 people.

<sniff>

<sniff>

What is that I smell? Is that the smell of Solyndra?

36 employed, 184 indirectly "Indirectly?" What the heck is that? Is McDonald's hiring to cover the lunch crowd? Will those jobs actually be sustainable in the long run?

I'm genuinely curious. It's kind of like if the bond for education passes, will there be jobs for those people to go to? Real jobs that will actually allow them to live and pay off their student loans?

I get this:

"If the plan is successful, state officials predict the creation of as many as 1,500 new jobs across northern Maine and a game-changing boost to the state’s forest products industry."

I don't get this:

"If?" What's the answer if it's "if not?" I suppose that's a calculated risk, but the people in that town have been promised much with little return. I don't blame them for being skittish.

IMHO, this comment should be noted:

“Since the tourists have left, it has been horrible,” Van Loon said. “There is nobody coming back to replace the tourists. We have faced a declining population and lately it has been declining rapidly, if you look at the obituaries. Families don’t come to visit their elders and take them to lunch as often.”

There's that word again: "Tourism" (which IMO, while better than nothing, is still a relatively useless basket in which to place all of our eggs in - in the long run anyway).

The town is literally dying. That makes me sad since my ancestors helped build and run it.

[Submariner]

Originally Posted by reloop

36 employed, 184 indirectly "Indirectly?" What the heck is that? Is McDonald's hiring to cover the lunch crowd? Will those jobs actually be sustainable in the long run?

36 jobs.

Then as those 36 people go home and spend their money on rent, utilities and groceries. That money will stimulate the economy to in effect pay hundreds of others 'in-directly'.

As yet, there are no news article, no direct quotes, from anyone implying any more than 36 actual jobs.

Nobody has found any links to any sources for more than 36 jobs.

... I get this:
"If the plan is successful, state officials predict the creation of as many as 1,500 new jobs across northern Maine and a game-changing boost to the state’s forest products industry."

I don't get this:
"If?" What's the answer if it's "if not?" I suppose that's a calculated risk, but the people in that town have been promised much with little return. I don't blame them for being skittish.

It is a gamble. This is a new technology. It might work.

Their might be a customer. Their might be smooth sailing and no sags in getting product shipped from Maine to Europe.

There is a chance that our tax-payer revenue might be useful in generating a brand new industry.

... IMHO, this comment should be noted:

“Since the tourists have left, it has been horrible,” Van Loon said. “There is nobody coming back to replace the tourists. We have faced a declining population and lately it has been declining rapidly, if you look at the obituaries. Families don’t come to visit their elders and take them to lunch as often.”

There's that word again: "Tourism" (which IMO, while better than nothing, is still a relatively useless basket in which to place all of our eggs in - in the long run anyway).

The town is literally dying. That makes me sad since my ancestors helped build and run it.

It is a sad situation.

[bangorme]

Originally Posted by Submariner

36 jobs.

Then as those 36 people go home and spend their money on rent, utilities and groceries. That money will stimulate the economy to in effect pay hundreds of others 'in-directly'.

As yet, there are no news article, no direct quotes, from anyone implying any more than 36 actual jobs.

Nobody has found any links to any sources for more than 36 jobs.

The problem being that around 50% of the "stimulus" money is siphoned out of the economy (the private sector) and distributed very inefficiently by the government. So actually, much more than 50% is absorbed by the government and taken out of the hands of private sector investors. That's why these things never work.

[Northern Maine Land Man]

The Bangor Daily had an article this week. When you manufacture many tons of product they must move many tons of raw material to the plant and many tons of finished product from the plant. That takes trucks, drivers, fuel, maintenance and repair facilities along with consumables like tires. Everything to supply the associated people will also come from the community.

That's a lot of cash flow.

[gordon53]

What is the consenus here on how likely construction will start?
I'll leave the viability of the project discussion till later.
I'm just interested in finding out if it looks likely that the project will be started...

[Submariner]

Originally Posted by gordon53

What is the consenus here on how likely construction will start?
I'll leave the viability of the project discussion till later.
I'm just interested in finding out if it looks likely that the project will be started...

It will start-up.

As with all government-funded projects, they can operate as long as politicians are throwing tax-payer money at them. Eventually the tax-payer money will stop, and then we can see if they are sustainable. [and of course we will pay the interest on the bond for years afterward]

F.A.M.E. is a state agency, spending borrowed money that tax-payers must pay for, plus the interest.

[gordon53]

Originally Posted by Submariner

It will start-up.

As with all government-funded projects, they can operate as long as politicians are throwing tax-payer money at them. Eventually the tax-payer money will stop, and then we can see if they are sustainable. [and of course we will pay the interest on the bond for years afterward]

F.A.M.E. is a state agency, spending borrowed money that tax-payers must pay for, plus the interest.

Hmm.

If it's viable, well, sure it's going to be great for the region.

I like the idea of the technology, of course. Cleaner than coal, lots of wood in the region...but,
the bottom line is will there be customers.

For it to work, pricing has to be competitive with coal.

And if the customer base is supposed to be the EU, transportation has to be factored in and transportation is never going to get cheaper, realistically. In fact, we saw in 2008 that $150 per barrell oil stops commerce all over the world. I saw an article that talked of 50 or so (if I recall correctly) freighters parked outside of Singapore harbor because of fuel costs and the fact that the shippers couldn't dead-head back to where ever. So it's a big factor.

Without getting into the big discussion about whether or not the government (be it state, federal or whatever) should be involved in any of this, I guess I'd rather see something like this than just handing billions, trillions in current and future dollars to bailout scoundrels in NYC by hooking working peoples' taxes forever in the scam.

But no one wants to see a losing proposition go down taking the taxpayers with it, especially in a town that looks like it's dying.

I hope they get it to work.

g

[Northern Maine Land Man]

"I'm just interested in finding out if it looks likely that the project will be started..."

It will be started if Cate can get the private funding. Many people do not understand the cash flow in large investments like wind power and other projects that require government permits. There is the construction approval, loan approval, tax incentives, possible loan guarantees and court costs. As soon as the government become involved in any way, detractors begin to whine about taxpayer dollars.

ALL permits involve taxpayer dollars whether it's Billy and Susie buying their first home or an East/West Highway. When Billy and Susie give back a mortgage deed and note, that note is likely guaranteed by a government agency. No taxpayer dollars were handed to Billy and Susie. Their low interest rate of 4% is possible because the government insures the loan. Banks are well aware that half of all marriages in our country end in divorce. If banks took all the risk, home mortgage rates would be over 10%, not 4%.

It's the same with large industrial projects. Most would not happen if the loans were not backed by the government. We can argue the merits of each project individually, but that's how the system works.

[cebdark]

Originally Posted by Northern Maine Land Man

"I'm just interested in finding out if it looks likely that the project will be started..."

It will be started if Cate can get the private funding. Many people do not understand the cash flow in large investments like wind power and other projects that require government permits. There is the construction approval, loan approval, tax incentives, possible loan guarantees and court costs. As soon as the government become involved in any way, detractors begin to whine about taxpayer dollars.

ALL permits involve taxpayer dollars whether it's Billy and Susie buying their first home or an East/West Highway. When Billy and Susie give back a mortgage deed and note, that note is likely guaranteed by a government agency. No taxpayer dollars were handed to Billy and Susie. Their low interest rate of 4% is possible because the government insures the loan. Banks are well aware that half of all marriages in our country end in divorce. If banks took all the risk, home mortgage rates would be over 10%, not 4%.

It's the same with large industrial projects. Most would not happen if the loans were not backed by the government. We can argue the merits of each project individually, but that's how the system works.

Good points.

[Cuffler]

Hi all
I don't have any knowledge about the financing or job creation here but I do know about Torrified Lumber.

It's been around for a while but only recently made it to the East Coast. You can Torrify any lumber by simply stacking it in a special room and heating it to just below combustion. What happens to the wood is that all the fibers (cell structures) in the wood are eliminated so that they can never hold water again. Normal wood for furniture is held at a 6% moisture content but it can absorb much more if exposed to water. That's what ultimately rots lumber. So, we paint it to seal it from too much moisture being absorbed. If, however, you Torrify that same piece of lumber, you don't affect it's strength at all but do eliminate any possibility of it absorbing any moisture, ever. If you were to put a piece into a bowl of water and then lifted it out, all of the water would simply leak out of it leaving you with a dry piece once again.

You can Torrify any lumber, too. I've made exterior doors from Torrified Poplar. Instead of that yellow/green look, it takes on a more chocolate look to it and even smells a bit 'burned' but it's stable and glues and carves extremely well. It will also shed any rain water but looks wonderful under an oil finish and can, of course, be painted. You can even use Torrified Poplar in place of the more expensive cedar lumber for exterior furniture and not have to worry about it rotting.....ever. One more thing: Torrified lumber has less mass than non-Torrified lumber. So, a piece of Torrified Ash, for instance, will be lighter than standard Ash. Still, it burns extremely well. Torrified pellets will be lighter in weight in the bag, too, but still be the same size. They won't absorb moisture, however, and therefore won't rot if they get wet.

Hope that helps! I'm a cabinetmaker and have used Torrified lumber numerous times with terrific success.

Rome/Connecticut