The Real Middle Class (New Gloucester: sale, insurance, broker)

[Submariner]

In terms of income; we have been middle class, but we walked away from it to live on a lower income rurally.

[bignhfamily]

Originally Posted by Elcarim

I've never heard that, and I'm going to write it down so I never forget it! What a wonderful concept.

Simple Gifts

Simple Gifts was written by Shaker Elder Joseph Brackett, Jr. in 1848. It was first published in The Gift to be Simple: Shaker Rituals and Songs. Simple Gifts was a work song sung by the United Society of Believers in Christ's Second Appearing (more commonly called the Shakers, an offshoot of the Quakers).

'Tis the gift to be simple,
'tis the gift to be free,
'tis the gift to come down where you ought to be,
And when we find ourselves in the place just right,
It will be in the valley of love and delight.

Refrain:

When true simplicity is gained,
To bow and to bend we shan't be ashamed.
To turn, turn will be our delight,
'Til by turning, turning we come round right

'Tis the gift to be loved and that love to return,
'Tis the gift to be taught and a richer gift to learn,
And when we expect of others what we try to live each day,
Then we'll all live together and we'll all learn to say,

Refrain:

'Tis the gift to have friends and a true friend to be,
'Tis the gift to think of others not to only think of "me",
And when we hear what others really think and really feel,
Then we'll all live together with a love that is real.

Refrain:

[dramamama6685]

Originally Posted by forest beekeeper

The last that I read the middle class started at about double poverty so $80k and Klinton ran the upper boundary to $200k.

So any household who grosses between $80k and $200k per year is 'middle class'.

Crap, we're poor!!! We aren't even in the ballpark of $80K. Even 3 1/2 years ago with 2 full time jobs each. No wonder it's taking longer for us to move as we're starting out soooo behind.

[Maine Writer]

Most people are no where near $80,000 in Maine. Here's what CD has to say.

I know a lot of people making half of $80,000 and living very rich lives. $80k could be the low end of middle class in other parts of the US but I don't think it is here.

[dramamama6685]

Originally Posted by Maine Writer

Most people are no where near $80,000 in Maine. Here's what CD has to say.

I know a lot of people making half of $80,000 and living very rich lives. $80k could be the low end of middle class in other parts of the US but I don't think it is here.

Lol. We are jsut barely above the percapita personal income for Maine will living in Ohio. Once we get there, we are planning on living on just a small fraction of that. Hopefully the numbers I came up with are do-able. After all, the kid will be done with college and on her own completely and we will have no need for 2 vehicles, so it should work.

[mainebrokerman]

i always thought middle class started around 35-40k

just as dieting to lose weight is considered a "lifestyle" approach, well, so are personal finances, it doesnt matter if you are making 30k or 100k a yr, most folks live beyond thier means. gotta have the two new cars for status symbols, and big house...
the average person, has credit card debt, of more than 15k.

personal earnings is one thing,,debt and frivilous spending is another.

i get a pain in my backside whenever i hear the doom and gloom media, interview a family making over 50k or 80k and they complain how tough it is,,,ITS NOT SO MUCH WHAT WE EARN, ITS WHAT WE SPEND!!
ive got some friends that make alot,,but its never enough, if they have a volvo, they want a bmw, or jaguar,
im not cheap,,i consider myself very frugal, id rather be making 25k a year, and be fiscally responsible, than earn 3 times that amount, and debt up to my eyeballs, and cant sleep at night.
the first half of my working life, i didnt make very much at all,,but i didnt spend alot either, i SAVED, i cut corners, watched my pennies, i drove ten yr old cars, and wouldnt pay for anything if i thought it was overpriced, or didnt NEED it.
my shortcoming, is that i do like to give, and would give a gift, or do for someone, i wouldnt buy for myself,..

i dont want to hear "how tough it is" from the middle-class when they have a combined car payment of over 1000 a month,,and buy 8$ of coffee a day and spend over 150 a week going out to eat.
and on the other end ,,i also dislike hearing from the "poor" folks,,that spend over 150 a month for cigarettes,(300, if two adults smoke) and seem to always have money for beer or pot...

(stepping off my soapbox)

[dramamama6685]

Originally Posted by mainebrokerman

i always thought middle class started around 35-40k

just as dieting to lose weight is considered a "lifestyle" approach, well, so are personal finances, it doesnt matter if you are making 30k or 100k a yr, most folks live beyond thier means. gotta have the two new cars for status symbols, and big house...
the average person, has credit card debt, of more than 15k.

personal earnings is one thing,,debt and frivilous spending is another.

i get a pain in my backside whenever i hear the doom and gloom media, interview a family making over 50k or 80k and they complain how tough it is,,,ITS NOT SO MUCH WHAT WE EARN, ITS WHAT WE SPEND!!
ive got some friends that make alot,,but its never enough, if they have a volvo, they want a bmw, or jaguar,
im not cheap,,i consider myself very frugal, id rather be making 25k a year, and be fiscally responsible, than earn 3 times that amount, and debt up to my eyeballs, and cant sleep at night.
the first half of my working life, i didnt make very much at all,,but i didnt spend alot either, i SAVED, i cut corners, watched my pennies, i drove ten yr old cars, and wouldnt pay for anything if i thought it was overpriced, or didnt NEED it.
my shortcoming, is that i do like to give, and would give a gift, or do for someone, i wouldnt buy for myself,..

i dont want to hear "how tough it is" from the middle-class when they have a combined car payment of over 1000 a month,,and buy 8$ of coffee a day and spend over 150 a week going out to eat.
and on the other end ,,i also dislike hearing from the "poor" folks,,that spend over 150 a month for cigarettes,(300, if two adults smoke) and seem to always have money for beer or pot...

(stepping off my soapbox)

It's okay, we still love ya'! However, both DH and I are smokers and infrequent drinkers. We are extraordinarily frugal (perhaps like you). All our vehicles(kid commutes to college, I work out of town) are 10 years old or older. House is tiny and paid for. 2 of my sisters and their spouses make considerably more, and not only is their home not paid off, but neither are their vehicles, credit cards, school loans, or debt to both of our parents. If we could have their income, we could be in Maine almost a decade sooner!

[Submariner]

Originally Posted by dramamama6685

Crap, we're poor!!! We aren't even in the ballpark of $80K. Even 3 1/2 years ago with 2 full time jobs each. No wonder it's taking longer for us to move as we're starting out soooo behind.

Please; Don't let statistics tell you who you are.

This is a large part of why I do not like statistics. People put together stats to project their opinion of 'normal'. Then use them to either form policies, or worse.

Who is an accountant, or a poll taker; to tell you whether you are happy?

From the same raw data, other types of statistics can also be formed you know. Did you know that in America there are households that accumulate great wealth and become 'millionaires' while earning 'poverty' incomes? In fact less than 5% of American Millionaires inherited a dime. The rest have worked for it, and most of them earn a median income of around $150k. Some of those household earn far less and still are able to accumulate large chunks of Net Worth.

It happens all of the time, but this is not the image that is projected by our society.

So not all 'poor' are destitute. Some people who our culture says are 'poor' are also business owners, and may have large Net Worth. So our system of defining 'poor' is a very poor system of defining anything. Building an image of someone by standards of 'poor' or 'middle-class' or 'upper class' just does not work.



You are smart, you are intelligent, you are healthy, you are capable.

You are defined by you.

Many people in our culture are defined by their profession. some are defined by their education, some by their family.

In our society we each get to define ourselves, by whatever standard we wish to define ourselves by.

Republican / Democrat / Socialist / etc;
Wealthy / middle class / poor / dis-enfranchised /etc;
lawyer / attorney / farmer / minister / plumber / soldier / etc;

I once allowed my profession to define me. And one day I realized that I had so totally conformed myself into the image, that I looked just like everyone else in that profession. In Italy I was being stopped on the street, and LNs would jump into a conversation thinking that I was the previous career soldier that he had been talking to. We all looked alike. Look at any photo of US servicemembers returning stateside, the career guys all look very much alike. They look alike, they speak alike, the act ... They have totally conformed themselves into the projected image of their profession.



In our nation we have freedoms that we can enjoy. Not everyone will take advantage of those freedoms, but they exist. We do not have to allow anyone or anything to conform us into any image, if you do not allow it.

We have the freedom to choose our own image of who we are.

Don't let statistics tell you who you are.

Don't let the accountants and poll takers of the IRS and census bureau, which are both controlled by politicians, tell you who you are.

May God bless you

[starwalker]

if you do not know the tune, and would like to sing it, I found an instrumental version as an audio file online

Originally Posted by bignhfamily

Simple Gifts

Simple Gifts was written by Shaker Elder Joseph Brackett, Jr. in 1848. It was first published in The Gift to be Simple: Shaker Rituals and Songs. Simple Gifts was a work song sung by the United Society of Believers in Christ's Second Appearing (more commonly called the Shakers, an offshoot of the Quakers).

'Tis the gift to be simple,
'tis the gift to be free,
'tis the gift to come down where you ought to be,
And when we find ourselves in the place just right,
It will be in the valley of love and delight.

Refrain:

When true simplicity is gained,
To bow and to bend we shan't be ashamed.
To turn, turn will be our delight,
'Til by turning, turning we come round right

'Tis the gift to be loved and that love to return,
'Tis the gift to be taught and a richer gift to learn,
And when we expect of others what we try to live each day,
Then we'll all live together and we'll all learn to say,

Refrain:

'Tis the gift to have friends and a true friend to be,
'Tis the gift to think of others not to only think of "me",
And when we hear what others really think and really feel,
Then we'll all live together with a love that is real.

Refrain:

[Submariner]

Originally Posted by dramamama6685

Lol. We are jsut barely above the percapita personal income for Maine will living in Ohio. Once we get there, we are planning on living on just a small fraction of that. Hopefully the numbers I came up with are do-able. After all, the kid will be done with college and on her own completely and we will have no need for 2 vehicles, so it should work.

Yesterday at Market; I was talking to a group of other farmers, and we got to laughing a couple of them were actually jumping and dancing they were so happy. Winter is cold, heating bills are high, most focus on fixing their houses and equipment. We came to market yesterday, loaded with produce and flat broke. One guy was telling us of working on his tractor, helping the mechanic, wondering if he was going to write a rubber check. When they were done, the mechanic quoted a very low price which included some veggies. It was the last dollar that the farmer had in his safe.

At market yesterday, we all sold-out, which was wonderful
And the customers were great!

Some of these guys are living in their homes while building homes [like I am doing], some are living in old farmhouses and working on greenhouses, etc.

The farmer who was the most 'high' and happy, just could not contain his excitement, is a RN. But he would rather be farming and sharing his produce with these customers; rather than working as an RN. He just bought a 90 acre farm and moved into a derelict abandoned farmhouse in mid-winter. But he is as happy as any man alive.