Pronunciation of towns/cities (Worcester, Leicester: area, accent, Irish)

[tamiznluv]

Originally Posted by elhelmete

Berlin = BER lin, right?

Ummm...I pronounce it BER lin NH but it was the ber LIN wall! Go figya!

[Verseau]

Originally Posted by rranger

Bawstin and Bahstin are completely different pronunciations - time for that overdue hearing test

The problem is that so-called "phonetic" spellings like Bawstin and Bahstin are open to interpretation (they are not precise representations of pronunciation like IPA transcription).

The other issue is that some dialects make distinctions between vowel sounds that other dialects do not. Most people who grew up in eastern Massachusetts or northern New England do not make a distinction between the words cot and caught, Don and Dawn, etc.

In fact, there are at least four possible vowel sounds that are sometimes represented as "ah" or "aw," making things even more confusing. Let's take the words father, bother, and daughter.

In eastern MA (+ NH & ME), bother and daughter share the same first vowel sound (same as Boston). This is an open back rounded vowel. Father, on the other hand traditionally has an open front unrounded vowel (the same vowel as in 'ar' words like car and farther). This distinction is gradually weakening among younger speakers.

In Rhode Island, CT, and much of western MA, it is father and bother that rhyme (with an open mid-front unrounded vowel), whereas daughter has a very distinct open mid-back rounded vowel. The same pattern holds true for much of the eastern US, although phonetic variations in the two vowel sounds exist (most places outside of the Mid-Atlantic have a more open vowel in daughter, for example).

For most people in the western half of the US, all three words have the same vowel, an open back unrounded vowel. This "western" system is becoming increasingly common among young New Englanders.

At any rate, if we are limited to simple alphabetic phonetic approximations, I think that "aw" is probably a better choice for Boston, to distinguish it from the "ah" sound of father or spa. But it shouldn't be confused with the more closed "aw" sound of Rhode Island or New York accents when they pronounce Boston or daughter.

I think some non-Bostonians are just so struck by the "ah" sound they hear, especially in non-rhotic speakers (i.e. "pahk the cah") that they mistakenly make jokes about Bostonians saying "Bahston." However, they don't grasp the rules of the accent: we would only say that if the name were spelled Barston.

(There was a similar joke on collegehumor when the iPad was first released, implying that that was how Bostonians had always pronounced iPod. But for any of us who have lived in Boston, we all know that that joke makes no sense. In fact, it is more appropriate for people from Chicago or Detroit or Buffalo or Cleveland or Milwaukee).

[tamiznluv]

Hmmm, I don't understand that college joke.

Fahther, not Fa(r)ther. I go farther to some where, my fahther has passed. No "aw".
Chicahgo, not Chicogo.
Dawther although I sometimes say Dohter like the "O" on Boston.
Bruther
Lester
Wooster
wata = water

I think it's the Harvard acccent the Kennedys and others have that people make fun of. I make fun of a Harvard accent!
They are accents unto their own.

[massnative71]

Originally Posted by tamiznluv

Ummm...I pronounce it BER lin NH but it was the ber LIN wall! Go figya!

Me too!

[Bruins_Fan]

Originally Posted by massnative71

Me too!

I believe that *is* the pronunciation the locals use. Went to college with a guy from Berlin, and remember him telling some of us that was how it was pronounced

[Valerie C]

Originally Posted by Verseau

I think some non-Bostonians are just so struck by the "ah" sound they hear, especially in non-rhotic speakers (i.e. "pahk the cah") that they mistakenly make jokes about Bostonians saying "Bahston." However, they don't grasp the rules of the accent: we would only say that if the name were spelled Barston.

This thread has become very interesting, and I enjoy Verseau's explanations (except that I need to re-read this post when I am alone. Pronouncing these words to see what they sound like to the ear makes me sound like I've finally fallen off my rocker...)

One final question: how do most native New Englanders refer to your mother or father's sister. I say "Aunt' (like "open up and say Ahhh"). When I speak with people from elsewhere, it's "Ant". To me, an Ant is a pesky insect that shows up at picnics...

[DawnMTL]

Originally Posted by Valerie C

One final question: how do most native New Englanders refer to your mother or father's sister. I say "Aunt' (like "open up and say Ahhh"). When I speak with people from elsewhere, it's "Ant". To me, an Ant is a pesky insect that shows up at picnics...

I can't figure that out either, but either way, I don't think it's an MA thing specifically. I say "Ant" but many people that I know in the US, no matter where they're from, say "Ont."

[Verseau]

Originally Posted by DandJ

I can't figure that out either, but either way, I don't think it's an MA thing specifically. I say "Ant" but many people that I know in the US, no matter where they're from, say "Ont."

Check out these maps from the Harvard Dialect Survey. They show the breakdown across the US. Although "ahnt" does exist in other parts of the US (namely Virginia, Minnesota & the Dakotas), it is most heavily concentrated in New England. (If you register for the Cambridge Survey of World Englishes, you can see a much more detailed interactive map here).

[DawnMTL]

Originally Posted by Verseau

Check out these maps from the Harvard Dialect Survey. They show the breakdown across the US. Although "ahnt" does exist in other parts of the US (namely Virginia, Minnesota & the Dakotas), it is most heavily concentrated in New England. (If you register for the Cambridge Survey of World Englishes, you can see a much more detailed interactive map here).

Ah, good point. I was just thinking about it and seemed to recall that most of the "Ahnt" sayers were in CT.

[tamiznluv]

Originally Posted by Valerie C

This thread has become very interesting, and I enjoy Verseau's explanations (except that I need to re-read this post when I am alone. Pronouncing these words to see what they sound like to the ear makes me sound like I've finally fallen off my rocker...)

One final question: how do most native New Englanders refer to your mother or father's sister. I say "Aunt' (like "open up and say Ahhh"). When I speak with people from elsewhere, it's "Ant". To me, an Ant is a pesky insect that shows up at picnics...

I say AHNT. I cringe when I hear ANT.